What Does “Paccayā” Mean in Paṭicca Samuppāda?

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SarathW
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What Does “Paccayā” Mean in Paṭicca Samuppāda?

Post by SarathW »

What Does “Paccayā” Mean in Paṭicca Samuppāda?
One of our Dhamma Wheel members Lal, examine the meaning of Pacaya in Paticca Samuppada.
I think most of the time we discuss PS without considering this very important fact.
However please share your knowledge and thoughts on this subject.

https://puredhamma.net/paticca-samuppad ... uaranteed/
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
SarathW
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Re: What Does “Paccayā” Mean in Paṭicca Samuppāda?

Post by SarathW »

Modes of Conditioning
Buddhism teaches that all phenomena, mental and physical, arise through conditions. In the Abhidhamma the modes of conditionality are analyzed into twenty-four types of relationship, each representing a tie between a condition and the phenomena it conditions. A brief account of these is as follows:

Root condition (hetu paccaya). The three unwholesome roots — greed, hate, and delusion — are root conditions for their associated unwholesome mental states and the material form they originate. Likewise, for the wholesome and indeterminate states — greedlessness, hatelessness, and undeludedness.

Object condition (aaramma.na paccaya). Any state that is an object for consciousness and its factors is an object condition. Consciousness is of six kinds by way of eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind; each can arise only with its appropriate object.

Predominance condition (adhipati paccaya). This assists in the manner of being foremost, thereby exercising a dominating rose over the other mental states. It may be a conascent mental state or it may be an object which is given special importance by the mind.

& 5. Proximity and Contiguity conditions (anantara paccaya, samanantara paccaya). In our analysis of a thought process we saw that seventeen thought moments follow each other in rapid succession. Each thought moment, with its factors, stands to the next thought moment and its factors in the relation of proximity condition and contiguity condition. These two modes of conditioning are different only in name but not in essence.

Conascence condition (sahajaata paccaya). When a number of phenomena arise simultaneously, each will function as a conascent condition for the others. For example, feeling arises as a conascent condition for its concomitants — perception, mental formations and consciousness — and each of these for the other three. The four primary elements are conascent conditions for each other and secondary matter. So too are mind and matter at conception.
Mutuality condition (aññamañña paccaya). Just as each leg of a tripod helps support the other two, mentality and materiality help each other at the moment of birth. At all times the concomitant mental states are mutuality conditions for each other, as are the co-existent primary material elements.
Support condition (nissaya paccaya). This serves as a base or foundation for the arising of some other state. All conascent conditions are also support conditions but, further, any sense organ is a support condition for the appropriate consciousness and its mental factors.
Decisive support condition (upanissaya paccaya). This gives stronger support than the previous type of condition, one that acts as a decisive inducement.
Pre-nascence condition (pure jaata paccaya). This refers to a state that has already arisen and, while still present, serves as a condition for something else that arises later. A particular sense consciousness arises because the pre-arisen sense organ and object are already present. Thus the organ and object are prenascent conditions for consciousness.
Post-nascence condition (pacchaajaata paccaya). This signifies a subsequently arisen state that sustains something already in existence. Hunger, for example, is a post-nascence condition for the preservation of the body as it results in food intake.
Repetition condition (aasevana paccaya). Each javana thought moment — wholesome, unwholesome, or indeterminate — conditions and strengthens the subsequent ones. Thus each is a repetition condition for its successor. By analogy, the recitation of a verse becomes easier the more frequently it is repeated.
Kamma condition (kamma paccaya). This refers to a volition that conditions other states. It is of two kinds. One is wholesome or unwholesome volition that conditions the resultant mental states and material form produced by kamma. The other is conascent volition that conditions its concomitant mental states and material form originated by that volition. Thus kamma condition may be prior to or simultaneous with the states it conditions.
Kamma result condition (vipaaka paccaya). Any mental phenomenon, citta or cetasika, that results from kamma is a kamma result condition for its associated mental phenomena and the kinds of material form it originates.
Nutriment condition (aahaara paccaya). Four kinds of phenomena are called nutriments in the sense that they are strong conditions for other phenomena:
material food sustains the physical body;
contact conditions feeling;
volition conditions rebirth consciousness; and
rebirth consciousness serves as a nutriment for mind and materiality.
Faculty condition (indriya paccaya). There are twenty-two faculties: six sense bases, two sexes, the life faculty, five feelings, five feelings, five spiritual faculties, and three supra-mundane faculties. Except for the two sexes, the other twenty can exercise control in their respective spheres on the co-existent mental states and the material phenomena they originate. For example, mindfulness — one of the five spiritual faculties — has a controlling influence on the other four co-adjuncts during meditation.
Jhaana condition (jhaana paccaya). This refers to the seven jhaana factors — initial thinking, discursive thinking, rapture, happiness, sadness, equanimity, and concentration — that condition their associated mental phenomena and the material phenomena they originate.
Path condition (magga paccaya). This comprises twelve factors. Four that lead to woeful states — the wrong path — are: wrong views, wrong aspiration, wrong effort and wrong concentration. Eight that lead to blissful states — the right path — are: right understanding, right aspiration, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration. These eight make up the Noble Eightfold Path.
Associated condition (sampayutta paccaya). The four mental groups — feeling, perception, mental formations and consciousness — that aid each other because they arise and perish together and have an identical object and base, are association conditions for each other.
Dissociation condition (vippayutta paccaya). This refers to one phenomenon that aids another by not mixing with it, by being separate from it. Thus mental and material phenomena are dissociation conditions for one another as they aid each other's genesis by remaining distinct.
Presence condition (atthi paccaya). This refers to phenomena that condition other phenomena only in their presence either as conascent, prenascent, or postnascent conditions. To give an analogy, objects can be seen only if there is light.
Absence condition (natthi paccaya). This refers to one phenomenon which can condition the arising of another only when it has ceased. Specifically it refers to the cittas and mental factors which have to cease for their successors to arise. By analogy, light must disappear for darkness to prevail.
Disappearance condition (vigata paccaya). This is identical with 22.
Non-disappearance condition (avigata paccaya). This is identical with 21.
The doctrine of dependent origination (pa.ticca samuppaada) teaches us that our mental and physical components are effects resulting from causes. The conditions (paccayas) show that a variety of specific relationships obtain between these effects and their causes. A few examples will be given to illustrate how this knowledge helps us to understand the Buddha's teaching and to put it into practice.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... #causality

Please refer to the link for a clear presentation.
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Re: What Does “Paccayā” Mean in Paṭicca Samuppāda?

Post by Spiny Norman »

Basically one thing depending on another. It can apply to events and processes.

https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/paccaya
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SarathW
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Re: What Does “Paccayā” Mean in Paṭicca Samuppāda?

Post by SarathW »

Thnaks.

What represents the Pacccya in Dependent Origination?
ie How can we apply these conditions to DO?
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Re: What Does “Paccayā” Mean in Paṭicca Samuppāda?

Post by DooDoot »

SarathW wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:13 am https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... #causality
A. In relation to the teaching:
First Cause. Buddhism does not postulate a first cause :roll: . The world is beginningless :roll: , a continuous arising and passing away of phenomena dependent on conditions. The assumption that the world must have had a beginning is due to our limited understanding. Buddhism teaches that the world consists of a countless number of world-systems arising, evolving, and disintegrating in accordance with natural laws. To this cosmic process there is no first point or outside cause. As the Buddha says: "Inconceivable, O monks, is this sa.msaara. Not to be discovered is any first beginning of beings, who obstructed by ignorance and ensnared by craving, are hurrying and hastening through this round of rebirths." In fact, it is our ignorance, resulting in craving, that creates us over and over again.

Ignorance. Though in the doctrine of dependent origination ignorance was given as the first link, it must not be taken as a first cause. The commentator, Venerable Buddhaghosa :roll: , states in the Visuddhi Magga (translated by Bhikkhu Ñaanamoli):

'Nor from a single cause arise
One fruit or many, nor one fruit from many;
'Tis helpful, though, to utilize
One cause and one fruit as representative.'
Please refer to the link for a clear presentation.
The above sounds wrong and is not from the suttas.

When the suttas say: "A beginning point is not evident, although beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are running around & wandering on"; this does not exclude ignorance as the 1st cause of dukkha. :smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun Jun 20, 2021 7:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What Does “Paccayā” Mean in Paṭicca Samuppāda?

Post by Spiny Norman »

SarathW wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 6:17 am Thnaks.

What represents the Pacccya in Dependent Origination?
ie How can we apply these conditions to DO?
In DO the root condition (first nidana) is ignorance. So when ignorance ceases, the other nidanas also cease, and DO "collapses". This successive cessation of nidanas is what the DO suttas describe.
What this means in practical terms is a matter of debate. :tongue:
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Re: What Does “Paccayā” Mean in Paṭicca Samuppāda?

Post by Dhammavamsa »

Buddha said no first cause ever known and it is impossible to know the first cause.

Ignorance was a representative cause in this Paticca Samuppada stanza. Buddha never said there is a definite First Cause for everything, be it in Suttanta or Atthakatha.

Whoever said there is a definite First Cause and putting that heretical statement to Buddha's mouth is really mispresent the Dhamma.
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Re: What Does “Paccayā” Mean in Paṭicca Samuppāda?

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SarathW wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:10 am One of our Dhamma Wheel members Lal, examine the meaning of Pacaya in Paticca Samuppada.

https://puredhamma.net/paticca-samuppad ... uaranteed/
The above link appears mixed up about "hetu" vs "paccaya". The suttas appear to not use "hetu" ("cause") in dependent origination; apart from in the idiosyncratic discordant DN 15. For example, the term "hetu-paccaya" is used in SN 22.82, but is not about the dependent origination of suffering:
The four great elements, bhikkhu, are the cause (hetu) and condition (paccaya) for the manifestation of the form aggregate.

Contact is the cause and condition for the manifestation of the feeling aggregate.

Contact is the cause and condition for the manifestation of the perception aggregate.

Contact is the cause and condition for the manifestation of the volitional formations aggregate.

Name-and-form [mind-and-body] is the cause and condition for the manifestation of the consciousness aggregate.

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.82/en/bodhi
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Re: What Does “Paccayā” Mean in Paṭicca Samuppāda?

Post by Spiny Norman »

Dhammavamsa wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 7:28 am Buddha said no first cause ever known and it is impossible to know the first cause.

Ignorance was a representative cause in this Paticca Samuppada stanza. Buddha never said there is a definite First Cause for everything, be it in Suttanta or Atthakatha.

Whoever said there is a definite First Cause and putting that heretical statement to Buddha's mouth is really mispresent the Dhamma.
A root condition is not a "First Cause" (whatever that is).
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Re: What Does “Paccayā” Mean in Paṭicca Samuppāda?

Post by DooDoot »

Dhammavamsa wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 7:28 am Buddha said no first cause ever known and it is impossible to know the first cause.

Ignorance was a representative cause in this Paticca Samuppada stanza. Buddha never said there is a definite First Cause for everything, be it in Suttanta or Atthakatha.

Whoever said there is a definite First Cause and putting that heretical statement to Buddha's mouth is really mispresent the Dhamma.
Please provide evidence. Thanks :thanks:
Mendicants, ignorance precedes [is the forerunner] the attainment of unskillful qualities, with lack of conscience and prudence following along.

Avijjā, bhikkhave, pubbaṅgamā akusalānaṁ dhammānaṁ samāpattiyā, anvadeva ahirikaṁ anottappaṁ.

https://suttacentral.net/sn45.1/en/sujato
Compare "pubbaṅgamā" above to below:
In this context, right view comes first.
Tatra, bhikkhave, sammādiṭṭhi pubbaṅgamā hoti.

And how does right view come first?
Kathañca, bhikkhave, sammādiṭṭhi pubbaṅgamā hoti?

https://suttacentral.net/mn117/en/sujato
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Re: What Does “Paccayā” Mean in Paṭicca Samuppāda?

Post by DooDoot »

SarathW wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 6:17 am Thnaks.

What represents the Pacccya in Dependent Origination?
ie How can we apply these conditions to DO?
The above question is difficult for me to understand :weep: . Could u kindly clarify the question? Thanks :thanks:
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Re: What Does “Paccayā” Mean in Paṭicca Samuppāda?

Post by DooDoot »

SarathW wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:10 am What Does “Paccayā” Mean in Paṭicca Samuppāda?

I think most of the time we discuss PS without considering this very important fact.

However please share your knowledge and thoughts on this subject.

One of our Dhamma Wheel members Lal, examine the meaning of Pacaya in Paticca Samuppada.

https://puredhamma.net/paticca-samuppad ... uaranteed/
Paccaya means "condition" but does not necessarily mean "cause" ("hetu'); although can be cause ("hetu").
paccaya
lit. resting on, falling back on

fr. paṭi + i, cp. Ved. pratyaya & P. pacceti, paṭicca

https://suttacentral.net/define/paccaya
pacceti
to come on to, come back to, fig. fall back on

https://suttacentral.net/define/pacceti
....the evil backfires [falls back] on the fool,
Tameva bālaṁ pacceti pāpaṁ,
like fine dust thrown upwind.
Sukhumo rajo paṭivātaṁva khitto”ti.

https://suttacentral.net/sn1.22/pli/ms
The ideas of Lal appear inaccurate because a paccaya (condition) in Dependent Origination can represent a cause (hetu) but can also not represent a cause (hetu).

While not very well explained, for me, Lal said:
Lal wrote:For example, a bomb causes damage because of the explosives in it; but someone has to trigger it to go off. If the bomb sits somewhere for a long time, its propellants may degrade, and then the “cause” may disappear; most kamma seeds are like that too.
In Lal's example, above, the explosives are "the cause" ("hetu") of damage; where as the person triggering off the bomb is a "condition" ("paccaya").

But the above separation of "hetu" & "condition" cannot be done consistently in in Paṭicca Samuppāda. For example, tanha (craving) is a cause (hetu) of upadana (attachment) but consciousness is not a cause (hetu) of the mind-body (nama) but merely a condition (paccaya).

In summary, it appears none of the Abhidhamma you posted can represent the reality of "paccaya" in Paṭicca Samuppāda. The impression is the proponents of Abhidhamma must recommence their studies, from afresh. :smile:
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Re: What Does “Paccayā” Mean in Paṭicca Samuppāda?

Post by DooDoot »

Dhammavamsa wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 7:28 am Whoever said there is a definite First Cause and putting that heretical statement to Buddha's mouth is really mispresent the Dhamma.
:strawman: :jedi: :guns:
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Re: What Does “Paccayā” Mean in Paṭicca Samuppāda?

Post by SarathW »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 7:29 am
SarathW wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:10 am One of our Dhamma Wheel members Lal, examine the meaning of Pacaya in Paticca Samuppada.

https://puredhamma.net/paticca-samuppad ... uaranteed/
The above link appears mixed up about "hetu" vs "paccaya". The suttas appear to not use "hetu" ("cause") in dependent origination; apart from in the idiosyncratic discordant DN 15. For example, the term "hetu-paccaya" is used in SN 22.82, but is not about the dependent origination of suffering:
The four great elements, bhikkhu, are the cause (hetu) and condition (paccaya) for the manifestation of the form aggregate.

Contact is the cause and condition for the manifestation of the feeling aggregate.

Contact is the cause and condition for the manifestation of the perception aggregate.

Contact is the cause and condition for the manifestation of the volitional formations aggregate.

Name-and-form [mind-and-body] is the cause and condition for the manifestation of the consciousness aggregate.

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.82/en/bodhi
Agree.
I think Lal got that wrong. I post his link just to start the discussion.
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Re: What Does “Paccayā” Mean in Paṭicca Samuppāda?

Post by SarathW »

Dhammavamsa wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 7:28 am Buddha said no first cause ever known and it is impossible to know the first cause.

Ignorance was a representative cause in this Paticca Samuppada stanza. Buddha never said there is a definite First Cause for everything, be it in Suttanta or Atthakatha.

Whoever said there is a definite First Cause and putting that heretical statement to Buddha's mouth is really mispresent the Dhamma.
There is a Sutta to say that Buddha said that it is not possible to see a beginning of the world as it was that long
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