Kathavatthu vs. Vachagotta

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Pondera
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Re: Kathavatthu vs. Vachagotta

Post by Pondera »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:04 am Because I can know a fool when I see a fool. That's called "real psychic power."

More seriously, an Arhant is one without obvious displays of the three poisons.
My poisons were ended when i entered Nirodha Samapatti at the age of 26.

Do you doubt that also? Do you see with you psychic eye that this has not occurred in my past?

If you have a psychic eye (which i do interestingly enough) - then gaze into my past.

On the same night in 2007 when HHDL came to Vancouver British Columbia to give a talk I was three miles away in a backpackers hostel entering cessation of perception and feeling.

Do you think I am making this up? Do you think this is a statistical impossibility? Because I am a “fool”?
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Re: Kathavatthu vs. Vachagotta

Post by Coëmgenu »

Pondera wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:18 amDo you think I am making this up?
Yes, more or less, but I don't necessarily think that you are intentionally doing it. I think that you think that you are an Arhant. I believe that when you say it and see no reason to think otherwise.
Pondera wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:18 amDo you think this is a statistical impossibility?
No, actually.
Pondera wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:18 amBecause I am a “fool”?
I don't think that you are forever a fool and will always be a fool, but rather that you are potentially defining yourself currently on this very forum based on a foolish sentiment. I think you have the possibility of, in the future, realizing that you were not an Arhant numerous times when you said that you were.

This is the last I've to say on the matter of your supposed Arhatva.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Kathavatthu vs. Vachagotta

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

:rules:

If Pondera wants to have a topic about Pondera, I guess that's alright, since there's no restriction on discussing these types of things at Dhamma Wheel... however, this banter is off-topic vis-a-vis "Kathavatthu vs. Vachagotta"

:focus:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Kathavatthu vs. Vachagotta

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:52 pm I don't think that I have to, because I don't think that "the Buddhadhamma" is limited to "the words in the suttas."
Oh, so you mean "the SomeoneElseDhamma"... thanks for clarifying.

:thanks:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Kathavatthu vs. Vachagotta

Post by Pondera »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:04 am Because I can know a fool when I see a fool. That's called "real psychic power."

More seriously, an Arhant is one without obvious displays of the three poisons. An Arhant is profoundly rare. An Arhant understands the Buddha's Dhamma. An Arhant has discarded self view. You believe that your cognition is your true self. You aren't familiar with the five aggregates as evidenced by your holding of that aforementioned position. You falsely proclaim yourself an Arhant, a display of at least two of three poisons.
So you are basing this on

1) a statistical fallacy

2) your mistaken belief that I hold to a self

3) your baseless assertion that I do not understand Dhamma

4) and this very weird accusation that I don’t know the skhandas (when in fact my Nirodha Samapatti would not be what it was if in fact there was any trace of skhandas in my attainment.

5) two out of three poisons.

So ignorance and hatred.

Let me clarify. You are merely asserting that I am bound by ignorance. My cessation of perception and feeling revealed the true nature of bondage to samsara.

By entering Nirodha Samapatti I ended ignorance. I am quite familiar with the skhandas. Why do you think I quote the Jhana Sutta so often.

What you perceive as “hatred” is in fact mere form of argument and rebuke against younger, uniformed, inexperienced, arrogant posters who denigrate the understanding of simple sutta knowledge by furthering an agenda that puts abhidamma on a pedestal while attempting to put anyone who has arguments against said abhidamma below the pedestal and (ie.) not worthy of the title “Theravadin”.

And that is the last I’ll say.

:focus:
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Re: Kathavatthu vs. Vachagotta

Post by Pondera »

retrofuturist wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:28 am Greetings,

:rules:

If Pondera wants to have a topic about Pondera, I guess that's alright, since there's no restriction on discussing these types of things at Dhamma Wheel... however, this banter is off-topic vis-a-vis "Kathavatthu vs. Vachagotta"

:focus:

Metta,
Paul. :)
I have no wish to live under any title or offend other people by referring to attainments in days gone by.

I am merely responding in turn to the accusation that I have some kind of “obligation” to honour and venerate the authors of the Abhidamma.

I could care less about titles. I could care less about whether old man Coëmgenu or young buck Ceisiwr believes a word I say.

The intelligent among us will take what is worth taking and apply it to their practice. The zealots will read as much as they can and go on to proselytize the rest of us.
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Re: Kathavatthu vs. Vachagotta

Post by Ceisiwr »

Stream-enterers don’t have any Jhana but have awakened to the path and have Right Concentration. This concentration is obviously looser or weaker than Jhana yet is Right. This is access concentration. You may argue about the name, but this is merely quibbling about terms. And no, I’m not a stream-enterer before that comes up.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Tue Jun 22, 2021 7:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Kathavatthu vs. Vachagotta

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 7:09 am Stream-enterers don’t have any Jhana but have awakened to the path and have Right Concentration. This concentration is obviously looser or weaker than Jhana yet is Right. This is access concentration. You may argue about the name, but this is merely quibbling about terms.
This makes no sense. The Buddha's teachers excelled in jhana but were not stream-entrants.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Kathavatthu vs. Vachagotta

Post by Ceisiwr »

retrofuturist wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 7:11 am Greetings,
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 7:09 am Stream-enterers don’t have any Jhana but have awakened to the path and have Right Concentration. This concentration is obviously looser or weaker than Jhana yet is Right. This is access concentration. You may argue about the name, but this is merely quibbling about terms.
This makes no sense. The Buddha's teachers excelled in jhana but were not stream-entrants.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Because of a lack of Right View. Those other ascetics who attained Jhana would have lacked desire for sense objects (one of the fetters) but weren’t non-returners, because they lacked the other path factors. There is a reason why some people in the suttas just seem to get the Dhamma. They did a lot of the previous leg work already.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Kathavatthu vs. Vachagotta

Post by Pondera »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 7:09 am Stream-enterers don’t have any Jhana but have awakened to the path and have Right Concentration. This concentration is obviously looser or weaker than Jhana yet is Right. This is access concentration. You may argue about the name, but this is merely quibbling about terms. And no, I’m not a stream-enterer before that comes up.
I have a sutta that you should read. It outlines “right concentration” as the attainment of jhana. It also, if you read closely - defines insight as a factor of right concentration. Ie. none of this “samadhi entry - exit - review - insight”. Here it is for your consideration.
The Blessed One said: "Now what, monks, is five-factored noble right concentration? There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities — enters and remains in the first jhana: rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought and evaluation. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal.

"Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again and again with water, so that his ball of bath powder — saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within and without — would nevertheless not drip; even so, the monk permeates, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal. This is the first development of the five-factored noble right concentration.

"Furthermore, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters and remains in the second jhana: rapture and pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought and evaluation — internal assurance. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of composure. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born of composure.

"Just like a lake with spring-water welling up from within, having no inflow from east, west, north, or south, and with the skies periodically supplying abundant showers, so that the cool fount of water welling up from within the lake would permeate and pervade, suffuse and fill it with cool waters, there being no part of the lake unpervaded by the cool waters; even so, the monk permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of composure. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born of composure. This is the second development of the five-factored noble right concentration.

"And furthermore, with the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the pleasure divested of rapture, so that there is nothing of his entire body unpervaded with pleasure divested of rapture.

"Just as in a blue-, white-, or red-lotus pond, there may be some of the blue, white, or red lotuses which, born and growing in the water, stay immersed in the water and flourish without standing up out of the water, so that they are permeated and pervaded, suffused and filled with cool water from their roots to their tips, and nothing of those blue, white, or red lotuses would be unpervaded with cool water; even so, the monk permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the pleasure divested of rapture. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded with pleasure divested of rapture. This is the third development of the five-factored noble right concentration.

"And furthermore, with the abandoning of pleasure and stress — as with the earlier disappearance of elation and distress — he enters and remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity and mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. He sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness, so that there is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by pure, bright awareness.

"Just as if a man were sitting wrapped from head to foot with a white cloth so that there would be no part of his body to which the white cloth did not extend; even so, the monk sits, permeating his body with a pure, bright awareness. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by pure, bright awareness. This is the fourth development of the five-factored noble right concentration.

"And furthermore, the monk has his theme of reflection well in hand, well attended to, well-considered, well-tuned[1] by means of discernment.

"Just as if one person were to reflect on another, or a standing person were to reflect on a sitting person, or a sitting person were to reflect on a person lying down; even so, monks, the monk has his theme of reflection well in hand, well attended to, well-pondered, well-tuned by means of discernment. This is the fifth development of the five-factored noble right concentration.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Apart from the fact that “access concentration” is excluded from Right Concentration - an earlier point we have disputed comes up (ie. whether or not discernment happens inside Right Concentration).

In fact “insight” is the fifth factor of the noble right concentration.

Just an attempt to correct wrong view.

Cheers. :toast:
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Re: Kathavatthu vs. Vachagotta

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pondera wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:13 pm
Quite mistaken.
There is the case where a monk is wholly accomplished in virtue, moderately accomplished in concentration, and moderately accomplished in discernment. With reference to the lesser and minor training rules, he falls into offenses and rehabilitates himself. Why is that? Because I have not declared that to be a disqualification in these circumstances. But as for the training rules that are basic to the holy life and proper to the holy life, he is one of permanent virtue, one of steadfast virtue. Having undertaken them, he trains in reference to the training rules. With the wasting away of [the first] three fetters, he is a stream-winner, never again destined for states of woe, certain, headed for self-awakening.
https://suttacentral.net/an3.86/en/thanissaro

The stream-enterer and once-returner aren’t accomplished in right concentration (Jhana), only the non-returner and Arahant are. The reason why a stream-enterer still has the fetter of sensual desire is because they haven’t experienced the other worldly rapture and bliss of Jhana yet. You should of course know this, being an Arahant yourself :?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Kathavatthu vs. Vachagotta

Post by Pondera »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:34 pm
Pondera wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:13 pm
Quite mistaken, just like most things you say.
Oh. You poor thing. I should report you for mocking me. But I won’t. Do you know why?

When I was a youngster we respected our elders. Do you know why? Physical violence. There were no video recording phones at the time. Your elders could beat the shyte out of you if they wanted.

So, I hardly care about slight insults over the internet.

However, I the name of “right speech” let’s have a discussion.
There is the case where a monk is wholly accomplished in virtue, moderately accomplished in concentration, and moderately accomplished in discernment. With reference to the lesser and minor training rules, he falls into offenses and rehabilitates himself. Why is that? Because I have not declared that to be a disqualification in these circumstances. But as for the training rules that are basic to the holy life and proper to the holy life, he is one of permanent virtue, one of steadfast virtue. Having undertaken them, he trains in reference to the training rules. With the wasting away of [the first] three fetters, he is a stream-winner, never again destined for states of woe, certain, headed for self-awakening.
https://suttacentral.net/an3.86/en/thanissaro
You are quoted as saying:
Stream-enterers don’t have any Jhana but have awakened to the path and have Right Concentration.
Which you now contradict.

The stream-enterer and once-returner aren’t accomplished in right concentration (Jhana), only the non-returner and Arahant are.
Which is just a pure contradiction as to what you said earlier.

Again, you are quoted saying.
Stream-enterers don’t have any Jhana but have awakened to the path and have Right Concentration.
The reason why a stream-enterer still has the fetter of sensual desire is because they haven’t experienced the other worldly rapture and bliss of Jhana yet. You should of course know this, being an Arahant yourself :?
You claim in that post that stream enterers have “right concentration”. Then you retract that. So what is your view?

https://suttacentral.net/an3.86/en/thanissaro

The stream-enterer and once-returner aren’t accomplished in right concentration (Jhana), only the non-returner and Arahant are. The reason why a stream-enterer still has the fetter of sensual desire is because they haven’t experienced the other worldly rapture and bliss of Jhana yet. You should of course know this, being an Arahant yourself :?
I do. I experience sukha in the sense that the Buddha said wherever he has a walking, sitting, standing, or laying down - he has a celestial abiding.

I have that. Share no doubt. Do you know me to be a liar? Do you think I am the type to gain “what?” by lying???

My whole adult life has been a demonstration of how the Overlord trains individuals in the Dhamma.

I have accepted at this point that a modern day silent Buddha will never be received with positivity.

This is all beside the point.
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