Why Is There Anything At All?

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dicsoncandra
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Re: Why Is There Anything At All?

Post by dicsoncandra »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:56 am
dicsoncandra wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:42 am bhāva ceases in accordance with DO.
the Tathagata wrote:'Reappears' doesn't apply. 'Does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Both does & does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Neither reappears nor does not reappear' doesn't apply."
K?
Since bhāva ceases, thus the notion of jāti and jāramarana no longer applies. because bhāva precedes them

Hence why, to reiterate:
"The view of those good recluses and brahmins who hold the doctrine and view ‘there is definitely no cessation of being’ is close to lust, close to bondage, close to delighting, close to holding, close to attachment; but the view of those good recluses and brahmins who hold the doctrine and view ‘there definitely is cessation of being’ is close to non-lust, close to non-bondage, close to non-delighting, close to non-holding, close to non attachment. After practising thus, he practises the way to dispassion towards being, to the fading away and cessation of being." - MN 60 (Apanakka Sutta)

It is a slippery slope, though, and exactly why the Buddha said it is 'close to'. The Dhamma is subtle and hard to grasp, it is to be approached with the attitude of non-grasping and thus any notion of 'I', 'mine' or 'myself' is already wrong view. On the other extreme, the annihilationist view too is wrong because they start with this assumption of 'I', 'mine' or 'myself' to begin with that gets destroyed. DO is the middle way and through seeing it one sees that phenomena are just phenomena that are dependently originated and thus anicca, dukkha, anatta. Therefore, Nibbana is the reality of letting go and there is no space for 'I', 'mine' or 'myself'
Last edited by dicsoncandra on Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:02 am, edited 3 times in total.
arising is manifest;
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Re: Why Is There Anything At All?

Post by dicsoncandra »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:59 am in other words, you don't cease to exist

Buddha wrote:'Does not reappear' doesn't apply.
phenomena don't cease but this 'I', 'mine' or 'myself' is abandoned with upādāna
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Re: Why Is There Anything At All?

Post by dicsoncandra »

dicsoncandra wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:26 am
DooDoot wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:14 am
dicsoncandra wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:01 am The terminologies aren't used in the Buddha Dhamma but they don't have the notion of phassa to me at all. Phassa can only come to be with the presence and meeting of two things (Sabba Sutta). presence, meeting and consciousness are pre-phassa
The Sabba Sutta is an internet fad and probably some argument against Brahminism. It is best to avoid it.

The Suttas say phassa can only come to be with the presence and meeting of three things, namely, internal sense organ, external sense object and sense consciousness (MN 148), as follows:
The six classes of contact should be understood.’ So it was said. And with reference to what was this said? Dependent on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises; the meeting of the three is contact. Dependent on the ear and sounds, ear-consciousness arises; the meeting of the three is contact. Dependent on the nose and odours, nose-consciousness arises; the meeting of the three is contact. Dependent on the tongue and flavours, tongue-consciousness arises; the meeting of the three is contact. Dependent on the body and tangibles, body-consciousness arises; the meeting of the three is contact. Dependent on the mind and mind-objects, mind-consciousness arises; the meeting of the three is contact. So it was with reference to this that it was said: ‘The six classes of contact should be understood. ’ This is the fourth set of six.

MN 148

Therefore, either you &/or Nanamoli are saying:

1. presence = external sense object

2. meeting = internal sense organ

3. consciousness = sense consciousness

Is this correct? Thanks :thanks: Its good if we can clarify the terminology used 1st.
I'm not very confident in my understanding of paticcasamuppāda in regard to the six sense-bases hence why I avoided writing about it. But from my currently limited understanding, that is incorrect (edit: with regard to equating them one to one the way you did), but I will have to refer back to the source material and I will. I refrain from explaining on this and would refer you direct to the source. Also, the articulations are my own, not the Ajahn's. I picked up some of his terminologies and freely wrote on it based on my understanding without anyone else's guidance or supervision

2nd edit: let me just state why it's incorrect from my understanding. It's because of the definition of paticcasamuppāda I used as per the article and hence why it requires simultaneous presence of internal sense organ and external sense object. It doesnt go linearly from 1 to 2 to 3 like that. I'll re-read the source material to be sure

Regards
pardon, what i meant was 'two things or more' in the general terms and that is why i also said the three are all pre-phassa (as I said I wasn't clear with it myself). I really need to be precise around you don't I :rofl:

but yeah, I do remember reading the source material that quoted the sutta and of course it's the three conditions for phassa, which in this sense it's already appropriated if i'm not wrong (edit: I think this was said with the presence of ignorance, but anyways please ignore since I can't remember what was said)

edit: you know what, I'll study more. no point discussing since as i said i'm not too clear regarding the six sense-bases yet :smile:

2nd edit: thinking about it, the three must be present together because it's just the case of DO with regard to viññana-nāmarūpa and nāmarūpa-viññana isn't it. Hence, internal sense organ and external sense of object that is a pair come under nāmarūpa and with their presence viññana is simultaneously present too, and vice versa according to DO. I guess it's clearer for me now and I somewhat remember reading this in Ajahn's book in his correspondence with Mathias in which the friend had trouble understanding just like I did.

3rd edit: do let me know if I finally understood it? :smile:

4th edit: again, i dare not say with confidence what is present or not present, or how it's explained in Ajahn's book cause I can't remember clearly and at this point i'm second-guessing my own memory

Regards
:anjali:
Last edited by dicsoncandra on Tue Jun 22, 2021 8:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why Is There Anything At All?

Post by Pondera »

Sartre attempted to answer this question using the phenomenonological approach. Here’s some background from the wiki on “Being and Nothingness”.
Based on an examination of the nature of phenomena, he describes the nature of two types of being, being-in-itself (the being of things) and being-for-itself. While being-in-itself is something that can only be approximated by human being, being-for-itself is the being of consciousness.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Being_and_Nothingness
Every question brings up the possibility of a negative answer, of non-being, e.g. "Who is entering? No one." For Sartre, this is how nothingness can exist at all.
Interesting for the fact that Nothingness is a meditative attainment in Buddhism. Sartre also saw that it was a type of “being”.
Phenomenological ontology:
In Sartre's opinion, consciousness does not make sense by itself: it arises only as an awareness of objects. Consciousness is therefore always and essentially consciousness of something, whether this "something" is a thing, a person, an imaginary object, etc.
And there’s the concept/ question you’re inquiring into: being-in-itself

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Being_in_itself
In Sartrean existentialism, being-in-itself (être-en-soi) is also contrasted with the being of persons, which he describes as a combination of, or vacillation or tension between, being-for-itself (être-pour-soi) and being-for-others (I'être-pour-autrui).[citation needed]

Being-in-itself refers to objects in the external world — a mode of existence that simply is. It is not conscious so it is neither active nor passive and harbors no potentiality for transcendence. This mode of being is relevant to inanimate objects, but not to humans, who Sartre says must always make a choice.[1]
Sartre is careful to never go into what being-in-itself “is”. He refers to it as “a plethora of being”. Something you might find in the attainment of “neither perception nor non perception”.

But Sartre does state that (at some place in the universe) being-in-itself had an upsurge in which it tried to “establish” itself by reflecting upon itself. There was a necessary upsurge where “being-in-itself-for-itself” was attempted.

Now, being in itself successfully created a “reflection” of itself. But that immediately caused the in-itself to be exactly what it was not - “an appearance”. This created a great division.

By causing itself to arise as an appearance, the “being-for-itself” came into “the picture”. The being-for-itself was able to be conscious of the “appearance” of being-in-itself. In no way was this consciousness “being-in-itself” (nor was the appearance. The appearance simply was consciousness - a for-itself on the face of the in-itself).

But that’s how the whole thing started. Being-in-itself attempted to “understand its own reality” and failed - in the process giving rise to appearance and consciousness which are simply nothingnesses on the face of reality.

We are nothingness. And this is the source of our anguish. Because we must always choose to be something that we are not - and not be something that we are.

The origins of the in-itself are never discussed. Only the relationship between appearance and consciousness on the face of an unknowable “plethora of being” (which, incidentally has no way of knowing itself. We, as humans, approximate it. Unless we transcend it. Ie. cessation of perception and feeling).
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Re: Why Is There Anything At All?

Post by cappuccino »

dicsoncandra wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 5:47 am the annihilationist view too is wrong because they start with this assumption of 'I', 'mine' or 'myself' to begin with that gets destroyed.
one cannot be destroyed


even sneakily
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Re: Why Is There Anything At All?

Post by dicsoncandra »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 8:11 pm
dicsoncandra wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 5:47 am the annihilationist view too is wrong because they start with this assumption of 'I', 'mine' or 'myself' to begin with that gets destroyed.
one cannot be destroyed


even sneakily
"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' Because of this, I say, a Tathagata — with the ending, fading away, cessation, renunciation, & relinquishment of all construings, all excogitations, all I-making & mine-making & obsessions with conceit — is, through lack of clinging/sustenance, released." - MN72

Paticcasamuppāda: with this, this is. with the arising of this, this arises; without this, this is not. with the ceasing of this, this ceases.

With upādāna (i.e. clinging in regard to the five aggregates), bhava (i.e. 'one') is. with the arising of upādāna, bhava arises; without upādāna, bhava is not. With the ceasing of upādāna, bhava ceases.

See the parallel? with the ceasing of clinging in regard to the five aggregates, bhava ceases. The five aggregates themselves aren't said to cease but you can't make them out to be 'one' because that 'one' only is with clinging. Hence:
...all I-making & mine-making & obsessions with conceit — is, through lack of clinging/sustenance, released
If you were to just be honest and transparent with yourself and practice according to what have been plainly written and reiterated in the Suttas, you will be able to verify that presence of craving (which conditions clinging) with the feeling when you find resistance to this notion that you find disagreeable. The Dhamma is very clear that clinging is to be abandoned and there really isn't anything left to say but for one to practice accordingly

I hold no ill-will and wish we all practice well
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arising is manifest;
ceasing is manifest;
change-while-standing is manifest.

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Re: Why Is There Anything At All?

Post by cappuccino »

dicsoncandra wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:18 am With the ceasing of upādāna, bhava ceases.
I know, the result is not annihilation
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Re: Why Is There Anything At All?

Post by dicsoncandra »

cappuccino wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:26 am
dicsoncandra wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:18 am With the ceasing of upādāna, bhava ceases.
I know, the result is not annihilation
Yes, but this assumption is to be abandoned too
one cannot be destroyed


even sneakily
May us just focus on the practice, that's all

Metta
:anjali:
Dicson
arising is manifest;
ceasing is manifest;
change-while-standing is manifest.

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Re: Why Is There Anything At All?

Post by cappuccino »

dicsoncandra wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:28 am
cappuccino wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:26 am
dicsoncandra wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:18 am With the ceasing of upādāna, bhava ceases.
I know, the result is not annihilation
Yes, but this assumption is to be abandoned too
why?
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Re: Why Is There Anything At All?

Post by dicsoncandra »

cappuccino wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:30 am
dicsoncandra wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:28 am
cappuccino wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:26 am

I know, the result is not annihilation
Yes, but this assumption is to be abandoned too
why?
because it is that which is rooted in craving. more specifically, bhava-tanha. all craving is to be abandoned regardless whether kamma-tanha, bhava-tanha or vibhava-tanha. DO (i.e. of conditioned phenomena) is the path of practice and by the very end of it, that very clinging to the doctrine too is to be abandoned for true liberation
arising is manifest;
ceasing is manifest;
change-while-standing is manifest.

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Re: Why Is There Anything At All?

Post by cappuccino »

dicsoncandra wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:52 am
cappuccino wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:30 am
dicsoncandra wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:28 am

Yes, but this assumption is to be abandoned too
why?
because it is that which is rooted in craving. more specifically, bhava-tanha.
you are clever but wrong
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Re: Why Is There Anything At All?

Post by dicsoncandra »

cappuccino wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:53 am
dicsoncandra wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:52 am
cappuccino wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:30 am

why?
because it is that which is rooted in craving. more specifically, bhava-tanha.
you are clever but wrong
you can't have an assumption that is not rooted in craving. by definition it means taking things for granted (i.e. jumping to conclusions), as opposed to seeing things clearly, which is through DO
arising is manifest;
ceasing is manifest;
change-while-standing is manifest.

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Re: Why Is There Anything At All?

Post by cappuccino »

dicsoncandra wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:55 am
Yamaka Sutta
But even though Ven. Yamaka was thus rebuked by those monks, he — from stubbornness & attachment — maintained his adherence to that evil supposition: 'As I understand the Teaching explained by the Blessed One, a monk with no more effluents, on the break-up of the body, is annihilated, perishes, & does not exist after death.'
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Re: Why Is There Anything At All?

Post by dicsoncandra »

cappuccino wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:57 am
dicsoncandra wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:55 am
Yamaka Sutta
But even though Ven. Yamaka was thus rebuked by those monks, he — from stubbornness & attachment — maintained his adherence to that evil supposition: 'As I understand the Teaching explained by the Blessed One, a monk with no more effluents, on the break-up of the body, is annihilated, perishes, & does not exist after death.'
What I wrote doesn't imply this. You're miscontextualising it with the presence of clinging with regard to any one or more of five aggregates rooted in bhava-tanha. Abandonment of clinging is done through discerning the dependent origination of phenomena, through which craving is abandoned. The monk you quote has a view rooted in vibhava-tanha, which means that he also held sakkaya-ditthi: a permanent self that gets destroyed at death permanently. And that is not true because for as long as craving is present, regardless of its root, the five aggregates are conditioned for re-becoming. DO is the middle way that transcends all views whether eternalism or annihilationism; sakkaya-ditthi (identity-view) or attavada (belief in self) is fettered out by the sotapanna.
[Ananda:] "It's amazing, lord, it's astounding, how deep this dependent co-arising is, and how deep its appearance, and yet to me it seems as clear as clear can be."

[The Buddha:] "Don't say that, Ananda. Don't say that. Deep is this dependent co-arising, and deep its appearance. It's because of not understanding and not penetrating this Dhamma that this generation is like a tangled skein, a knotted ball of string, like matted rushes and reeds, and does not go beyond transmigration, beyond the planes of deprivation, woe, and bad destinations." - DN 15
And DO is not merely to be held as a view or belief. It is to be practiced accordingly with everyday experience

Edit: imagine the five aggregates are calmed, but this 'I' is no where to be found with them. Is it gruesome to you, unsatisfactory? Why? How is it gruesome if there isn't craving (bhava-tanha) against the notion with the feeling that persists? Contemplate on it and practice accordingly. You can see craving manifest with the feeling as you experience them

Vibhava-tanha is the other extreme, there is passion and delight in regard to the 'self' being annihilated to nothingness at death permanently. Presence of craving is the problem
Last edited by dicsoncandra on Wed Jun 23, 2021 7:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
arising is manifest;
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change-while-standing is manifest.

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Re: Why Is There Anything At All?

Post by cappuccino »

dicsoncandra wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 6:47 am a permanent self that gets destroyed at death permanently
no self is a self doctrine


just saying
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