Why Is There Anything At All?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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dicsoncandra
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Re: Why Is There Anything At All?

Post by dicsoncandra »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:11 am
dicsoncandra wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 1:29 pm the Buddha Dhamma, and I hope not to misrepresent the Teaching in any way ... Firstly, we need to see that ‘something’ exists only when there is a presence of recognition of it, which implies that a phenomenon is present.
the Buddha Dhamma says ‘something’ exists even when there is no recognition of it - AN 3.136 & SN 12.20
Actually, now that I remember, I used 'exist' in terms of bhava and not 'appearance' hence why recognition which comes with it is actually describing DO: viññāna-nāmarūpa <> nāmarūpa-viññāna.

I forgot how I redefined the two terms (i.e., existence and appearance) since I'd been frantically re-reading the later paragraphs looking for the slightest fault.

With regard to the answer to the question: in my view, the Buddha did give one, which is as per your quote but he never promised that it was going to be satisfactory. Nevertheless, it is an answer that is real, and explaining how one arrives at the conclusion has some significance imo.

Edit: but I guess it wouldn't be fair to the average reader. I think the amendment can be better understood :smile:
2nd edit: actually now I'm not sure, I may want to retain the original definitions. you can tell me why it's wrong
3rd edit: also, in your case, instead of saying it 'exists' I would say it is 'present'. Even Bhante Sujato worded it as 'persists' and not 'exists'

Best,
Dicson
Last edited by dicsoncandra on Mon Jun 21, 2021 5:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
arising is manifest;
ceasing is manifest;
change-while-standing is manifest.

Link to website: http://dicsonstable.blog/
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Re: Why Is There Anything At All?

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dicsoncandra wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:27 pm but he never promised that it was going to be satisfactory. Nevertheless, it is an answer that is real
"Yes, friends. As I understand the Teaching explained by the Blessed One, a monk with no more effluents, on the break-up of the body, is annihilated, perishes, & does not exist after death."

"Don't say that, friend Yamaka. Don't misrepresent the Blessed One. It's not good to misrepresent the Blessed One, for the Blessed One would not say, 'A monk with no more effluents, on the break-up of the body, is annihilated, perishes, & does not exist after death.'"

Yamaka Sutta
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Re: Why Is There Anything At All?

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cappuccino wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:38 pm
dicsoncandra wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:27 pm but he never promised that it was going to be satisfactory. Nevertheless, it is an answer that is real
"Yes, friends. As I understand the Teaching explained by the Blessed One, a monk with no more effluents, on the break-up of the body, is annihilated, perishes, & does not exist after death."

"Don't say that, friend Yamaka. Don't misrepresent the Blessed One. It's not good to misrepresent the Blessed One, for the Blessed One would not say, 'A monk with no more effluents, on the break-up of the body, is annihilated, perishes, & does not exist after death.'"

Yamaka Sutta
And I gave an explanation that is in accordance with the sutta? I emphasised that 'something' and 'nothing' are mere manifestations of existence. Hence why the annihilationist view is wrong. DO leads to the cessation of bhava:

"The view of those good recluses and brahmins who hold the doctrine and view ‘there is definitely no cessation of being’ is close to lust, close to bondage, close to delighting, close to holding, close to attachment; but the view of those good recluses and brahmins who hold the doctrine and view ‘there definitely is cessation of being’ is close to non-lust, close to non-bondage, close to non-delighting, close to non-holding, close to non attachment. After practising thus, he practises the way to dispassion towards being, to the fading away and cessation of being." - MN 60 (Apanakka Sutta)

:smile:
arising is manifest;
ceasing is manifest;
change-while-standing is manifest.

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Re: Why Is There Anything At All?

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dicsoncandra wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:52 pm DO leads to the cessation of bhava:
worldly existence as we know it
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Re: Why Is There Anything At All?

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cappuccino wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:54 pm
dicsoncandra wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:52 pm DO leads to the cessation of bhava:
worldly existence as we know it
That's an assumption, upādāna.
arising is manifest;
ceasing is manifest;
change-while-standing is manifest.

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Re: Why Is There Anything At All?

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dicsoncandra wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:57 pm
cappuccino wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:54 pm
dicsoncandra wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:52 pm DO leads to the cessation of bhava:
worldly existence as we know it
That's an assumption, upādāna.
the middle rather than an extreme


the extremes are existence & non existence
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Re: Why Is There Anything At All?

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cappuccino wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:59 pm
dicsoncandra wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:57 pm
cappuccino wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:54 pm

worldly existence as we know it
That's an assumption, upādāna.
the middle rather than an extreme


the extremes are existence & non existence
you're seeing existence and non-existence at the level of jāti, hence wrong view.

(MN 22 - Alagaddupama Sutta)
"But, lord, might there be agitation over what is internally not present?"

"There might, monk," the Blessed One said. "There is the case where someone has this view: 'This cosmos is the self. After death this I will be constant, permanent, eternal, not subject to change. I will stay just like that for an eternity.' He hears a Tathagata or a Tathagata's disciple teaching the Dhamma for the elimination of all view-positions, determinations, biases, inclinations, & obsessions; for the stilling of all fabrications; for the relinquishing of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding. The thought occurs to him, 'So it might be that I will be annihilated! So it might be that I will perish! So it might be that I will not exist!' He grieves & is tormented, weeps, beats his breast, & grows delirious. It's thus that there is agitation over what is internally not present."

"But, lord, might there be non-agitation over what is internally not present?"

"There might, monk," the Blessed One said. "There is the case where someone doesn't have this view: 'This cosmos is the self. After death this I will be constant, permanent, eternal, not subject to change. I will stay just like that for an eternity.' He hears a Tathagata or a Tathagata's disciple teaching the Dhamma for the elimination of all view-positions, determinations, biases, inclinations, & obsessions; for the stilling of all fabrications; for the relinquishing of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding. The thought doesn't occur to him, 'So it might be that I will be annihilated! So it might be that I will perish! So it might be that I will not exist!' He doesn't grieve, isn't tormented, doesn't weep, beat his breast, or grow delirious. It's thus that there is non-agitation over what is internally not present."

DO leads to the cessation of bhava and you can't refute this with the suttas no matter how few you want to cherry pick and put out of context. Upādāna is clinging on dear life, suffering is not understood.
arising is manifest;
ceasing is manifest;
change-while-standing is manifest.

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Re: Why Is There Anything At All?

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dicsoncandra wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 5:10 pm suffering is not understood.
annihilation is suffering

Ananda Sutta wrote:If I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self — were to answer that there is no self, that would be conforming with those brahmans & contemplatives who are exponents of annihilationism.
annihilation is not the teaching

:shrug:
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Re: Why Is There Anything At All?

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cappuccino wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 5:15 pm
dicsoncandra wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 5:10 pm suffering is not understood.
annihilation is suffering

Ananda Sutta wrote:If I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self — were to answer that there is no self, that would be conforming with those brahmans & contemplatives who are exponents of annihilationism.
annihilation is not the teaching

:shrug:
I agree and I haven't preached of annihilation :smile:
arising is manifest;
ceasing is manifest;
change-while-standing is manifest.

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Re: Why Is There Anything At All?

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dicsoncandra wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 5:47 pm I agree and I haven't preached of annihilation
Nirvana is a realm
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Re: Why Is There Anything At All?

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cappuccino wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 5:48 pm
dicsoncandra wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 5:47 pm I agree and I haven't preached of annihilation
Nirvana is a realm
Nibbana is the reality of letting go, where upādāna is abandoned and craving is uprooted at its root. This, cannot be miscontextualised. ;)
arising is manifest;
ceasing is manifest;
change-while-standing is manifest.

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Re: Why Is There Anything At All?

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dicsoncandra wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:10 pm Nibbana is the reality of letting go
There is that sphere where there is no earth, no water, no fire nor wind; no sphere of infinity of space, of infinity of consciousness, of nothingness or even of neither-perception-nor non-perception; there, there is neither this world nor the other world, neither moon nor sun; this sphere I call neither a coming nor a going nor a staying still, neither a dying nor a reappearance; it has no basis, no evolution and no support: this, just this, is the end of dukkha.

~ Ud 8.1
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Re: Why Is There Anything At All?

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cappuccino wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:16 pm
dicsoncandra wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:10 pm Nibbana is the reality of letting go
There is that sphere where there is no earth, no water, no fire nor wind; no sphere of infinity of space, of infinity of consciousness, of nothingness or even of neither-perception-nor non-perception; there, there is neither this world nor the other world, neither moon nor sun; this sphere I call neither a coming nor a going nor a staying still, neither a dying nor a reappearance; it has no basis, no evolution and no support: this, just this, is the end of dukkha.

~ Ud 8.1
Exactly, Nibbana is the reality of letting go, and that is something. It can thus be labelled as ayatana but can only be approached as such, free from assumption :)
arising is manifest;
ceasing is manifest;
change-while-standing is manifest.

Link to website: http://dicsonstable.blog/
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Re: Why Is There Anything At All?

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dicsoncandra wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:25 pm free from assumption
free from what assumption?
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Re: Why Is There Anything At All?

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cappuccino wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:26 pm
dicsoncandra wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:25 pm free from assumption
free from what assumption?
Assumption refers to upādāna. Freedom from appropriation of phenomena as 'I', 'mine' or 'myself'
arising is manifest;
ceasing is manifest;
change-while-standing is manifest.

Link to website: http://dicsonstable.blog/
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