Did Buddha prohibit monks from criticises another monk on the basis of Vinaya or the Dhamma teaching?

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SarathW
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Did Buddha prohibit monks from criticises another monk on the basis of Vinaya or the Dhamma teaching?

Post by SarathW »

Did Buddha prohibit monks from criticising another monk on the basis of Vinaya or the Dhamma teaching?
Does this apply to laypeople as well?
Are there any instances Buddha criticises another monk?
For example, if I see a particular monk is leading a large number of followers the incorrect way (at least the way I understand) should I just keep quiet and mind my own business thinking, that those followers riping their own bad Kamma in the past?
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confusedlayman
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Re: Did Buddha prohibit monks from criticises another monk on the basis of Vinaya or the Dhamma teaching?

Post by confusedlayman »

U need to talk polity to that monk and not in public announcement
You need to speak with good intention and not with heavy feeling.
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
SarathW
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Re: Did Buddha prohibit monks from criticises another monk on the basis of Vinaya or the Dhamma teaching?

Post by SarathW »

My question is whether Buddhism has something like blasphemy in Abrahamic religion.
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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Did Buddha prohibit monks from criticises another monk on the basis of Vinaya or the Dhamma teaching?

Post by JamesTheGiant »

These are the things a monk needs to do before criticizing another monk:
Basically it rules out completely ever criticizing another. It's a high standard.
AN10.44 wrote:"O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu who desires to admonish another should do so after investigating five conditions in himself and after establishing five other conditions in himself. What are the five conditions which he should investigate in himself?

[1] "Am I one who practices purity in bodily action, flawless and untainted...?

[2] "Am I one who practices purity in speech, flawless and untainted...?

[3] "Is the heart of goodwill, free from malice, established in me towards fellow-farers in the holy life...?

[4] "Am I or am I not one who has heard much, who bears in mind what he has heard, who stores up what he has heard? Those teachings which are good alike in their beginning, middle, and ending, proclaiming perfectly the spirit and the letter of the utterly purified holy life — have such teachings been much heard by me, borne in mind, practiced in speech, pondered in the heart and rightly penetrated by insight...?

[5] "Are the Patimokkhas [rules of conduct for monks and nuns] in full thoroughly learned by heart, well-analyzed with thorough knowledge of their meanings, clearly divided sutta by sutta and known in minute detail by me...?

"These five conditions must be investigated in himself.

"And what other five conditions must be established in himself?

[1] "Do I speak at the right time, or not?

[2] "Do I speak of facts, or not?

[3] "Do I speak gently or harshly?

[4] "Do I speak profitable words or not?

[5] "Do I speak with a kindly heart, or inwardly malicious?

"O bhikkhus, these five conditions are to be investigated in himself and the latter five established in himself by a bhikkhu who desires to admonish another."
SarathW
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Re: Did Buddha prohibit monks from criticises another monk on the basis of Vinaya or the Dhamma teaching?

Post by SarathW »

Thank you James.
However does this stops questions such as:
1) Are monks allowed to keep pets and give a source of my question?
2) Are monks allowed to discuss their attainments etc and provide the source of the question?
:thanks:

Does this rule apple to lay people?
Am I allowed to say that I have seen or heard a monk etc?
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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Did Buddha prohibit monks from criticises another monk on the basis of Vinaya or the Dhamma teaching?

Post by JamesTheGiant »

SarathW wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 2:21 am
Does this rule apple to lay people?
That's specifically for monks and nuns.
For laypeople I like to give Dhammapada 50:
Dhammapada Verse 50
Paveyya ajivaka Vatthu

Na paresam vilomani
na paresam katakatam
attanova avekkheyya
katani akatani ca.

One should not consider the faults of others,
nor their doing or not doing good or bad deeds.
One should consider only whether oneself has done or not done good or bad deeds.
SarathW
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Re: Did Buddha prohibit monks from criticises another monk on the basis of Vinaya or the Dhamma teaching?

Post by SarathW »

JamesTheGiant wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 2:48 am
SarathW wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 2:21 am
Does this rule apple to lay people?
That's specifically for monks and nuns.
For laypeople I like to give Dhammapada 50:
Dhammapada Verse 50
Paveyya ajivaka Vatthu

Na paresam vilomani
na paresam katakatam
attanova avekkheyya
katani akatani ca.

One should not consider the faults of others,
nor their doing or not doing good or bad deeds.
One should consider only whether oneself has done or not done good or bad deeds.
:goodpost: :thanks:
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form
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Re: Did Buddha prohibit monks from criticises another monk on the basis of Vinaya or the Dhamma teaching?

Post by form »

To maintain proper order in the sangha.
SarathW
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Re: Did Buddha prohibit monks from criticises another monk on the basis of Vinaya or the Dhamma teaching?

Post by SarathW »

I wonder these sort of turning your blind eye to problems cause issues such as in the Catholic church.
If a monk see one of his fellow monk has an affair with a lay woman or involve with child abuse, you just pretend that you never seen it?
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Re: Did Buddha prohibit monks from criticises another monk on the basis of Vinaya or the Dhamma teaching?

Post by Dhammanando »

SarathW wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 4:17 am I wonder these sort of turning your blind eye to problems cause issues such as in the Catholic church.
Yes, it does, but then so does excessive officiousness on the part of people who aren't actually very well-informed about Vinaya.
SarathW wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 4:17 amIf a monk see one of his fellow monk has an affair with a lay woman or involve with child abuse, you just pretend that you never seen it?
No. Non-disclosure of an offence of such gravity (or even of a less serious, though still weighty, sanghādisesa offence) is prohibited by the 64th pācittiya rule.
"If a monk knowingly conceals a monk’s grave offense, he commits an offense entailing confession."
https://suttacentral.net/pli-tv-bu-vb-pc64/en/brahmali
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tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


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It turns out otherwise.
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SarathW
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Re: Did Buddha prohibit monks from criticises another monk on the basis of Vinaya or the Dhamma teaching?

Post by SarathW »

What if a particular monk teaches the wrong Dhamma.
For instance, if a monk teaches his/her followers that it is not possible to attain enlightenment in this life and encouraging them to seek the birth in Brahama or Deva worlds?
Even in a case, Sri Lankan layperson claim to be an Arhant but only observe the five precepts? Are we allowed to criticises them?
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Re: Did Buddha prohibit monks from criticises another monk on the basis of Vinaya or the Dhamma teaching?

Post by JamesTheGiant »

SarathW wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 10:15 am What if a particular monk teaches the wrong Dhamma.
For instance, if a monk teaches his/her followers that it is not possible to attain enlightenment in this life and encouraging them to seek the birth in Brahama or Deva worlds?
Even in a case, Sri Lankan layperson claim to be an Arhant but only observe the five precepts? Are we allowed to criticises them?
It's difficult eh! Surely someone has to point out bad teachings, and oppose evil?

Just remember the Buddha said first you should look at your own mind and your intentions, and be mindful of criticising in the best way.
If you do criticise, try to do it with the 5 conditions established:
And what other five conditions must be established in himself?

[1] "Do I speak at the right time, or not?

[2] "Do I speak of facts, or not?

[3] "Do I speak gently or harshly?

[4] "Do I speak profitable words or not?

[5] "Do I speak with a kindly heart, or inwardly malicious?
SarathW
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Re: Did Buddha prohibit monks from criticises another monk on the basis of Vinaya or the Dhamma teaching?

Post by SarathW »

And what other five conditions must be established in himself?

[1] "Do I speak at the right time, or not?

We are discussing it in a Buddhist forum which is to clarify the true teaching.

[2] "Do I speak of facts, or not?

They are facts.

[3] "Do I speak gently or harshly?

Not harsh in my opinion.

[4] "Do I speak profitable words or not?

I believe it is profitable

[5] "Do I speak with a kindly heart, or inwardly malicious?

No malicious intent.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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