In Chaturogha ( ogha tarana) sutta lord budda says that he overcame the kama ogha etc. neither standing nor swimming against or pushing the tide. Standing I would sink or pushing I would be swept away.
Can please somebody explain the meaning of sinking or being swept away here.
Chaturogha - Oghatarana sutta
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Chaturogha - Oghatarana sutta
Last edited by justindesilva on Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Chaturogha sutta
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html"When I pushed forward, I was whirled about. When I stayed in place, I sank. And so I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place."
To me, this means not over-exerting or slacking.
In other words not by Atthakilamathanuyoga or Kamsukalluyanuyoga. ie middle path
Last edited by SarathW on Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Chaturogha sutta
Yes, thats it But whatis its meaning and explanation. Why should he sink in this tide or whirled in this ocean of samsara. ?SarathW wrote: ↑Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:57 amhttps://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html"When I pushed forward, I was whirled about. When I stayed in place, I sank. And so I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place."
Re: Chaturogha - Oghatarana sutta
When I pushed forward = too much effort to concentrate (rather the gentle letting go into flexible silent mind)
When I stayed in place = no effort to prevent unwholesome states and keep the mind silent
When I stayed in place = no effort to prevent unwholesome states and keep the mind silent
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Re: Chaturogha sutta
Actually, I can't swim.justindesilva wrote: ↑Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:02 amYes, thats it But whatis its meaning and explanation. Why should he sink in this tide or whirled in this ocean of samsara. ?SarathW wrote: ↑Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:57 amhttps://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html"When I pushed forward, I was whirled about. When I stayed in place, I sank. And so I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place."
So I know either way I will die if I get into the water.
If I do not do anything I will drown or swept away. If I try hard I still will be drowned as I do not know how to swim.
Perhaps Pushing forward means the people who do wholesome actions and go to the heavens and Brahama worlds.
Perhaps others may go to hell.
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Re: Chaturogha sutta
I think that's right, though IMO this simile doesn't work very well.SarathW wrote: ↑Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:57 amhttps://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html"When I pushed forward, I was whirled about. When I stayed in place, I sank. And so I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place."
To me, this means not over-exerting or slacking.
In other words not by Atthakilamathanuyoga or Kamsukalluyanuyoga. ie middle path
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Re: Chaturogha sutta
Perhaps we have to look at Pali.Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:21 pmI think that's right, though IMO this simile doesn't work very well.SarathW wrote: ↑Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:57 amhttps://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html"When I pushed forward, I was whirled about. When I stayed in place, I sank. And so I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place."
To me, this means not over-exerting or slacking.
In other words not by Atthakilamathanuyoga or Kamsukalluyanuyoga. ie middle path
Maybe the translation error.
Ven. Thanissaro's opinion is that means "unestablished." I think this is making more sense too.
I don't see why Deva is proud?The Commentary informs us that the Buddha teaches the devata in terms of the paradox in order to subdue her pride.
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Re: Chaturogha - Oghatarana sutta
The words of Tathagata are indeed deep, profound and subtle, Ordinary individuals like me can only speculate.justindesilva wrote: ↑Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:47 am In Chaturogha ( ogha tarana) sutta lord budda says that he overcame the kama ogha etc. neither standing nor swimming against or pushing the tide. Standing I would sink or pushing I would be swept away.
Can please somebody explain the meaning of sinking or being swept away here.
Standing and Pushing refers to seeing anatta. As long as there was ignorance of self and I in relation to the khandas, there was someone who was sinking and being swept away.
The Tathagata righlty saw that the 5 khandas of clinging as just khandas and not self and I, By seeing thus he knew and saw that there is flood but no 'person' stuck in the flood. It was just suffering arising and suffering ceasing.
Seeing that there is noone stuck in the flood other than the khandas, The Buddha crossed over without standing or pushing away.
Re: Chaturogha - Oghatarana sutta
It means not "going with the flow".justindesilva wrote: ↑Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:47 am In Chaturogha ( ogha tarana) sutta lord budda says that he overcame the kama ogha etc. neither standing nor swimming against or pushing the tide. Standing I would sink or pushing I would be swept away.
Can please somebody explain the meaning of sinking or being swept away here.
If you stay still and do nothing, you will drown where you stand.
If you struggle too hard and tire out, you drown.
If you let the current sweep you to the other shore, you live.
Means letting go and go with the flow without getting entangled with the sankharas.
"When I pushed forward, I was whirled about. When I stayed in place, I sank. And so I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place."
At long last I see
a brahman, totally unbound,
who without pushing forward,
without staying in place,
has crossed over
the entanglements
of the world.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
Re: Chaturogha - Oghatarana sutta
Looks like related to this sutta AN 3.102 Nimittasutta
If a mendicant dedicated to the higher mind focuses solely on the foundation of immersion, it’s likely their mind will incline to laziness.
If they focus solely on the foundation of exertion, it’s likely their mind will incline to restlessness.
If they focus solely on the foundation of equanimity, it’s likely their mind won’t properly become immersed in samādhi for the ending of defilements.
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Re: Chaturogha - Oghatarana sutta
This sutta has bettered my understanding in the words of lord budda. As said here it is upadanaskandha which keep us clinging and swimming in this tide or flux ( ogha) of samsara or the oceon called samsara. Looking back in to my own past my clinging to various beautiful figures or rupakanda delayed my spiritual progress. My clinging to various targets of tactile luxury and aroma allong with desires of relative luxury of life along with my attached family has delayed my spiritual progress in life. In short my attachment to emotion and desires towards salayatana kept me worling in one place, or sinking with accumulation of klesha. I later realised that the only way is to swim along arya ashtanga margaya. Only arya ashtanga margaya which is the middle path, that is not sukallukana yoga or attakilamatanuyogaya will keep us against drifting or sinking in the ocean of samsara. Sinking here is also mean sinking towards naraka or lower realms.sakyan wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 1:45 amThe words of Tathagata are indeed deep, profound and subtle, Ordinary individuals like me can only speculate.justindesilva wrote: ↑Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:47 am In Chaturogha ( ogha tarana) sutta lord budda says that he overcame the kama ogha etc. neither standing nor swimming against or pushing the tide. Standing I would sink or pushing I would be swept away.
Can please somebody explain the meaning of sinking or being swept away here.
Standing and Pushing refers to seeing anatta. As long as there was ignorance of self and I in relation to the khandas, there was someone who was sinking and being swept away.
The Tathagata righlty saw that the 5 khandas of clinging as just khandas and not self and I, By seeing thus he knew and saw that there is flood but no 'person' stuck in the flood. It was just suffering arising and suffering ceasing.
Seeing that there is noone stuck in the flood other than the khandas, The Buddha crossed over without standing or pushing away.
Wirling here can mean going back and forth in 31 realms of samsara or other bhavas or existences other than nirvana.
All explained as ditthi ogha , bhava ogha, avidya ogha mentioned in ogha tarana sutta too can be countered with arya ashtanga margaya.
With metta and many thanks to all who contributed.
Re: Chaturogha - Oghatarana sutta
"I crossed over the flood without pushing forward (without disturbed by the eight worldly conditions) , without staying in place (follow the Noble Eightfold Path.)"
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Re: Chaturogha - Oghatarana sutta
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html"Monks, these eight worldly conditions spin after the world, and the world spins after these eight worldly conditions. Which eight? Gain, loss, status, disgrace, censure, praise, pleasure, & pain. These are the eight worldly conditions that spin after the world, and the world spins after these eight worldly conditions.
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