Chaturogha - Oghatarana sutta

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justindesilva
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Chaturogha - Oghatarana sutta

Post by justindesilva »

In Chaturogha ( ogha tarana) sutta lord budda says that he overcame the kama ogha etc. neither standing nor swimming against or pushing the tide. Standing I would sink or pushing I would be swept away.
Can please somebody explain the meaning of sinking or being swept away here.
Last edited by justindesilva on Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
SarathW
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Re: Chaturogha sutta

Post by SarathW »

"When I pushed forward, I was whirled about. When I stayed in place, I sank. And so I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

To me, this means not over-exerting or slacking.
In other words not by Atthakilamathanuyoga or Kamsukalluyanuyoga. ie middle path
Last edited by SarathW on Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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justindesilva
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Re: Chaturogha sutta

Post by justindesilva »

SarathW wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:57 am
"When I pushed forward, I was whirled about. When I stayed in place, I sank. And so I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Yes, thats it But whatis its meaning and explanation. Why should he sink in this tide or whirled in this ocean of samsara. ?
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DooDoot
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Re: Chaturogha - Oghatarana sutta

Post by DooDoot »

When I pushed forward = too much effort to concentrate (rather the gentle letting go into flexible silent mind)

When I stayed in place = no effort to prevent unwholesome states and keep the mind silent
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SarathW
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Re: Chaturogha sutta

Post by SarathW »

justindesilva wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:02 am
SarathW wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:57 am
"When I pushed forward, I was whirled about. When I stayed in place, I sank. And so I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Yes, thats it But whatis its meaning and explanation. Why should he sink in this tide or whirled in this ocean of samsara. ?
Actually, I can't swim.
So I know either way I will die if I get into the water. :embarassed:
If I do not do anything I will drown or swept away. If I try hard I still will be drowned as I do not know how to swim.
Perhaps Pushing forward means the people who do wholesome actions and go to the heavens and Brahama worlds.
Perhaps others may go to hell.
:shrug:
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Post by sunnat »

If one enters the stream and becomes one with the Dhamma, abandoning craving and ignorance, and just goes with the flow, there is irrevocable progress.
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Re: Chaturogha sutta

Post by Spiny Norman »

SarathW wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:57 am
"When I pushed forward, I was whirled about. When I stayed in place, I sank. And so I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

To me, this means not over-exerting or slacking.
In other words not by Atthakilamathanuyoga or Kamsukalluyanuyoga. ie middle path
I think that's right, though IMO this simile doesn't work very well.
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SarathW
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Re: Chaturogha sutta

Post by SarathW »

Spiny Norman wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:21 pm
SarathW wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:57 am
"When I pushed forward, I was whirled about. When I stayed in place, I sank. And so I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

To me, this means not over-exerting or slacking.
In other words not by Atthakilamathanuyoga or Kamsukalluyanuyoga. ie middle path
I think that's right, though IMO this simile doesn't work very well.
Perhaps we have to look at Pali.
Maybe the translation error.
Ven. Thanissaro's opinion is that means "unestablished." I think this is making more sense too.
The Commentary informs us that the Buddha teaches the devata in terms of the paradox in order to subdue her pride.
I don't see why Deva is proud?
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sakyan
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Re: Chaturogha - Oghatarana sutta

Post by sakyan »

justindesilva wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:47 am In Chaturogha ( ogha tarana) sutta lord budda says that he overcame the kama ogha etc. neither standing nor swimming against or pushing the tide. Standing I would sink or pushing I would be swept away.
Can please somebody explain the meaning of sinking or being swept away here.
The words of Tathagata are indeed deep, profound and subtle, Ordinary individuals like me can only speculate.

Standing and Pushing refers to seeing anatta. As long as there was ignorance of self and I in relation to the khandas, there was someone who was sinking and being swept away.

The Tathagata righlty saw that the 5 khandas of clinging as just khandas and not self and I, By seeing thus he knew and saw that there is flood but no 'person' stuck in the flood. It was just suffering arising and suffering ceasing.

Seeing that there is noone stuck in the flood other than the khandas, The Buddha crossed over without standing or pushing away.
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Re: Chaturogha - Oghatarana sutta

Post by pegembara »

justindesilva wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:47 am In Chaturogha ( ogha tarana) sutta lord budda says that he overcame the kama ogha etc. neither standing nor swimming against or pushing the tide. Standing I would sink or pushing I would be swept away.
Can please somebody explain the meaning of sinking or being swept away here.
It means not "going with the flow".
If you stay still and do nothing, you will drown where you stand.
If you struggle too hard and tire out, you drown.
If you let the current sweep you to the other shore, you live.

Means letting go and go with the flow without getting entangled with the sankharas.
"When I pushed forward, I was whirled about. When I stayed in place, I sank. And so I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place."
At long last I see
a brahman, totally unbound,
who without pushing forward,
without staying in place,
has crossed over
the entanglements
of the world
.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
atipattoh
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Re: Chaturogha - Oghatarana sutta

Post by atipattoh »

Looks like related to this sutta AN 3.102 Nimittasutta
If a mendicant dedicated to the higher mind focuses solely on the foundation of immersion, it’s likely their mind will incline to laziness.

If they focus solely on the foundation of exertion, it’s likely their mind will incline to restlessness.

If they focus solely on the foundation of equanimity, it’s likely their mind won’t properly become immersed in samādhi for the ending of defilements.
justindesilva
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Re: Chaturogha - Oghatarana sutta

Post by justindesilva »

sakyan wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 1:45 am
justindesilva wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:47 am In Chaturogha ( ogha tarana) sutta lord budda says that he overcame the kama ogha etc. neither standing nor swimming against or pushing the tide. Standing I would sink or pushing I would be swept away.
Can please somebody explain the meaning of sinking or being swept away here.
The words of Tathagata are indeed deep, profound and subtle, Ordinary individuals like me can only speculate.

Standing and Pushing refers to seeing anatta. As long as there was ignorance of self and I in relation to the khandas, there was someone who was sinking and being swept away.

The Tathagata righlty saw that the 5 khandas of clinging as just khandas and not self and I, By seeing thus he knew and saw that there is flood but no 'person' stuck in the flood. It was just suffering arising and suffering ceasing.

Seeing that there is noone stuck in the flood other than the khandas, The Buddha crossed over without standing or pushing away.
This sutta has bettered my understanding in the words of lord budda. As said here it is upadanaskandha which keep us clinging and swimming in this tide or flux ( ogha) of samsara or the oceon called samsara. Looking back in to my own past my clinging to various beautiful figures or rupakanda delayed my spiritual progress. My clinging to various targets of tactile luxury and aroma allong with desires of relative luxury of life along with my attached family has delayed my spiritual progress in life. In short my attachment to emotion and desires towards salayatana kept me worling in one place, or sinking with accumulation of klesha. I later realised that the only way is to swim along arya ashtanga margaya. Only arya ashtanga margaya which is the middle path, that is not sukallukana yoga or attakilamatanuyogaya will keep us against drifting or sinking in the ocean of samsara. Sinking here is also mean sinking towards naraka or lower realms.
Wirling here can mean going back and forth in 31 realms of samsara or other bhavas or existences other than nirvana.
All explained as ditthi ogha , bhava ogha, avidya ogha mentioned in ogha tarana sutta too can be countered with arya ashtanga margaya.
With metta and many thanks to all who contributed.
SarathW
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Re: Chaturogha - Oghatarana sutta

Post by SarathW »

"I crossed over the flood without pushing forward (without disturbed by the eight worldly conditions) , without staying in place (follow the Noble Eightfold Path.)"
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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confusedlayman
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Re: Chaturogha - Oghatarana sutta

Post by confusedlayman »

SarathW wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:13 am "I crossed over the flood without pushing forward (without disturbed by the eight worldly conditions) , without staying in place (follow the Noble Eightfold Path.)"
Explain
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
SarathW
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Re: Chaturogha - Oghatarana sutta

Post by SarathW »

confusedlayman wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 6:11 pm
SarathW wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:13 am "I crossed over the flood without pushing forward (without disturbed by the eight worldly conditions) , without staying in place (follow the Noble Eightfold Path.)"
Explain
"Monks, these eight worldly conditions spin after the world, and the world spins after these eight worldly conditions. Which eight? Gain, loss, status, disgrace, censure, praise, pleasure, & pain. These are the eight worldly conditions that spin after the world, and the world spins after these eight worldly conditions.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
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