Suttas which say we should oppose people who say bad things or distort dhamma?

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JamesTheGiant
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Suttas which say we should oppose people who say bad things or distort dhamma?

Post by JamesTheGiant »

Recently I was discussing with Sarath about when it's appropriate to rebuke someone for falsifying the dhamma, or for giving really bad teachings.
I found some sutta quotes which basically say Do Not Rebuke and Do Not Get Involved.
Do you know of any suttas which say we should actively oppose the anti- dhamma teachers, and rebuke the people spreading fake dhamma? Or maybe report evil monks who steal and abuse.

Many thanks.


The suttas about not getting involved and not rebuking are here:
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=40605
SarathW
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Re: Suttas which say we should oppose people who say bad things or distort dhamma?

Post by SarathW »

He should be told, 'Don't say that. You shouldn't speak in that way. Don't misrepresent the Blessed One, for it's not right to misrepresent the Blessed One, and the Blessed One wouldn't say that. It's impossible, there is no way that
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Suttas which say we should oppose people who say bad things or distort dhamma?

Post by JamesTheGiant »

Thanks Sarath, so there's one at least. :anjali:
asahi
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Re: Suttas which say we should oppose people who say bad things or distort dhamma?

Post by asahi »

The question also need to be asked is what are the criteria that it is distorted or regarded as false dhamma ?
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Re: Suttas which say we should oppose people who say bad things or distort dhamma?

Post by Dweller »

asahi wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 10:26 am The question also need to be asked is what are the criteria that it is distorted or regarded as false dhamma ?
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN8_53.html
I have heard that at on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Vesāli at the Gabled Hall in the Great Forest.

Then Mahāpajāpati Gotamī went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, stood to one side. As she was standing there she said to him: “It would be good, lord, if the Blessed One would teach me the Dhamma in brief such that, having heard the Dhamma from the Blessed One, I might dwell alone, secluded, heedful, ardent, & resolute.”

“Gotamī, the qualities of which you may know, ‘These qualities lead to passion, not to dispassion; to being fettered, not to being unfettered; to accumulating, not to shedding; to self-aggrandizement, not to modesty; to discontent, not to contentment; to entanglement, not to reclusiveness; to laziness, not to aroused persistence; to being burdensome, not to being unburdensome’: You may categorically hold, ‘This is not the Dhamma, this is not the Vinaya, this is not the Teacher’s instruction.’

“As for the qualities of which you may know, ‘These qualities lead to dispassion, not to passion; to being unfettered, not to being fettered; to shedding, not to accumulating; to modesty, not to self-aggrandizement; to contentment, not to discontent; to reclusiveness, not to entanglement; to aroused persistence, not to laziness; to being unburdensome, not to being burdensome’: You may categorically hold, ‘This is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, this is the Teacher’s instruction.’”

That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, Mahāpājapati Gotamī delighted in his words.
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Re: Suttas which say we should oppose people who say bad things or distort dhamma?

Post by robertk »

https://suttacentral.net/dn16/en/sujato

‘Wicked One, I will not become fully extinguished until I have monk disciples who are competent, educated, assured, learned, have memorized the teachings, and practice in line with the teachings. Not until they practice properly, living in line with the teaching. Not until they’ve learned their tradition, and explain, teach, assert, establish, disclose, analyze, and make it clear. Not until they can legitimately and completely refute the doctrines of others that come up, and teach with a demonstrable basis.’
‘na tāvāhaṁ, pāpima, parinibbāyissāmi, yāva me bhikkhū na sāvakā bhavissanti viyattā vinītā visāradā bahussutā dhammadharā dhammānudhammappaṭipannā sāmīcippaṭipannā anudhammacārino, sakaṁ ācariyakaṁ uggahetvā ācikkhissanti desessanti paññapessanti paṭṭhapessanti vivarissanti vibhajissanti uttānīkarissanti, uppannaṁ parappavādaṁ sahadhammena suniggahitaṁ niggahetvā sappāṭihāriyaṁ dhammaṁ desessantī’ti.
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Re: Suttas which say we should oppose people who say bad things or distort dhamma?

Post by form »

There are also sutta content that said we should not hold a view and remain unaffected and mind our own business.
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Re: Suttas which say we should oppose people who say bad things or distort dhamma?

Post by dharmacorps »

Defeat the liar with truth.

More a generality than a personal obligation of course.
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Re: Suttas which say we should oppose people who say bad things or distort dhamma?

Post by DooDoot »

JamesTheGiant wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 6:53 am Recently I was discussing with
MN 22, MN 38, DN 16.
For the Blessed One, O Lord, spoke these words to me: 'I shall not come to my final passing away, Evil One, until my bhikkhus and bhikkhunis, laymen and laywomen, have come to be true disciples — wise, well disciplined, apt and learned, preservers of the Dhamma, living according to the Dhamma, abiding by the appropriate conduct, and having learned the Master's word, are able to expound it, preach it, proclaim it, establish it, reveal it, explain it in detail, and make it clear; until, when adverse opinions arise, they shall be able to refute them thoroughly and well, and to preach this convincing and liberating Dhamma.'

DN 16
The above said, the above only applies to Supramundane Dhamma. Therefore, the unenlightened, for example, cannot police the True Dhamma. :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Post by sunnat »

right.

Ananda, for example, even though he knew all the Buddha discourses he had ever heard, was still being admonished and taught by The Buddha when The Blessed one was dying. Just knowing the suttas is not enough. Knowing just one sutta and practicing correctly will be enough to get to the True Dhamma and the true discernment.
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Re: Suttas which say we should oppose people who say bad things or distort dhamma?

Post by SarathW »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 10:12 pm
JamesTheGiant wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 6:53 am Recently I was discussing with
MN 22, MN 38, DN 16.
For the Blessed One, O Lord, spoke these words to me: 'I shall not come to my final passing away, Evil One, until my bhikkhus and bhikkhunis, laymen and laywomen, have come to be true disciples — wise, well disciplined, apt and learned, preservers of the Dhamma, living according to the Dhamma, abiding by the appropriate conduct, and having learned the Master's word, are able to expound it, preach it, proclaim it, establish it, reveal it, explain it in detail, and make it clear; until, when adverse opinions arise, they shall be able to refute them thoroughly and well, and to preach this convincing and liberating Dhamma.'

DN 16
The above said, the above only applies to Supramundane Dhamma. Therefore, the unenlightened, for example, cannot police the True Dhamma. :smile:
Agree.
But unenlightened can raise questions to clarify the Dhamma.
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Re: Suttas which say we should oppose people who say bad things or distort dhamma?

Post by one_awakening »

What do we say to someone who says Mindfulness is a Buddhist practice where you focus on the present moment in an unreactive way?
“You only lose what you cling to”
SarathW
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Re: Suttas which say we should oppose people who say bad things or distort dhamma?

Post by SarathW »

one_awakening wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 1:22 am What do we say to someone who says Mindfulness is a Buddhist practice where you focus on the present moment in an unreactive way?
I would say there are many definitions for mindfulness based on who teaches them.
I would say that in Buddhism it means the four frames of reference in line with the Satipathana Sutta.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Suttas which say we should oppose people who say bad things or distort dhamma?

Post by mikenz66 »

SarathW wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 2:10 am
one_awakening wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 1:22 am What do we say to someone who says Mindfulness is a Buddhist practice where you focus on the present moment in an unreactive way?
I would say there are many definitions for mindfulness based on who teaches them.
I would say that in Buddhism it means the four frames of reference in line with the Satipathana Sutta.
Yes, I'd be inclined to say that focusing on the present unreactively is a good start, but it's not the goal of the Buddha's teachings.

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Re: Suttas which say we should oppose people who say bad things or distort dhamma?

Post by one_awakening »

mikenz66 wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 2:30 am Yes, I'd be inclined to say that focusing on the present unreactively is a good start, but it's not the goal of the Buddha's teachings.
But mindfulness means to remember. We have to remember that we need to solve the problem of suffering. It's also not a passive process where you just watch things come and go. If something unpleasant arises in the mind for example, you have to react to it in some way. You have to investigate why it has arisen, why it's causing suffering and how you can let go of it. That's Buddism, not Western mindfulness which people claim to be a Buddhist teaching.
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