Why give up sensual pleasures?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Zenny
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by Zenny »

un8- wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 10:33 pm
Zenny wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:21 pm So what happened to the Buddha's marriage after 45?
He never touched his wife again?

Didn't he attain Arahantship at 35? He probably didn't touch anyone (other than maybe washing someone), as he said the human body is a rotting stench.
A rotting stench? We are talking about human beings here.
Buddha had a body as well.
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un8-
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by un8- »

Zenny wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:03 pm
un8- wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 10:33 pm
Zenny wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:21 pm So what happened to the Buddha's marriage after 45?
He never touched his wife again?

Didn't he attain Arahantship at 35? He probably didn't touch anyone (other than maybe washing someone), as he said the human body is a rotting stench.
A rotting stench? We are talking about human beings here.
Buddha had a body as well.
Not to an enlightened being. An enlightened being doesn't "have" a body, they are disjoined from the aggregates.
“Enough, Vakkali! Why do you want to see this foul body? One who sees the Dhamma sees me; one who sees me sees the Dhamma. For in seeing the Dhamma, Vakkali, one sees me; and in seeing me, one sees the Dhamma.
An enlightened being doesn't see "people" either, they see just dukkha, which is the 3 poisons mixed in with a heap of aggregates.
35. "Why now do you assume 'a being'?
Mara, have you grasped a view?
This is a heap of sheer constructions:
Here no being is found.

36. Just as, with an assemblage of parts,
The word 'chariot' is used,
So, when the aggregates are present,
There's the convention 'a being.'

37. It's only suffering that comes to be,
Suffering that stands and falls away.
Nothing but suffering comes to be,
Nothing but suffering ceases."[27]
They don't have the perversion of perception that would lead to attraction to a "body"
Taking impermanence as permanence.
Taking suffering as happiness.
Taking not-self as self.
Taking ugliness as beauty.

These are the four perversions of perception, mind, and view.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
Zenny
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by Zenny »

un8- wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:25 am
Zenny wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:03 pm
un8- wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 10:33 pm


Didn't he attain Arahantship at 35? He probably didn't touch anyone (other than maybe washing someone), as he said the human body is a rotting stench.
A rotting stench? We are talking about human beings here.
Buddha had a body as well.
Not to an enlightened being. An enlightened being doesn't "have" a body, they are disjoined from the aggregates.
“Enough, Vakkali! Why do you want to see this foul body? One who sees the Dhamma sees me; one who sees me sees the Dhamma. For in seeing the Dhamma, Vakkali, one sees me; and in seeing me, one sees the Dhamma.
An enlightened being doesn't see "people" either, they see just dukkha, which is the 3 poisons mixed in with a heap of aggregates.
35. "Why now do you assume 'a being'?
Mara, have you grasped a view?
This is a heap of sheer constructions:
Here no being is found.

36. Just as, with an assemblage of parts,
The word 'chariot' is used,
So, when the aggregates are present,
There's the convention 'a being.'

37. It's only suffering that comes to be,
Suffering that stands and falls away.
Nothing but suffering comes to be,
Nothing but suffering ceases."[27]
They don't have the perversion of perception that would lead to attraction to a "body"
Taking impermanence as permanence.
Taking suffering as happiness.
Taking not-self as self.
Taking ugliness as beauty.

These are the four perversions of perception, mind, and view.
Well,the Buddha sure still ate food to maintain his body.
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un8-
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by un8- »

Zenny wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:53 am
un8- wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:25 am
Zenny wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:03 pm

A rotting stench? We are talking about human beings here.
Buddha had a body as well.
Not to an enlightened being. An enlightened being doesn't "have" a body, they are disjoined from the aggregates.
“Enough, Vakkali! Why do you want to see this foul body? One who sees the Dhamma sees me; one who sees me sees the Dhamma. For in seeing the Dhamma, Vakkali, one sees me; and in seeing me, one sees the Dhamma.
An enlightened being doesn't see "people" either, they see just dukkha, which is the 3 poisons mixed in with a heap of aggregates.
35. "Why now do you assume 'a being'?
Mara, have you grasped a view?
This is a heap of sheer constructions:
Here no being is found.

36. Just as, with an assemblage of parts,
The word 'chariot' is used,
So, when the aggregates are present,
There's the convention 'a being.'

37. It's only suffering that comes to be,
Suffering that stands and falls away.
Nothing but suffering comes to be,
Nothing but suffering ceases."[27]
They don't have the perversion of perception that would lead to attraction to a "body"
Taking impermanence as permanence.
Taking suffering as happiness.
Taking not-self as self.
Taking ugliness as beauty.

These are the four perversions of perception, mind, and view.
Well,the Buddha sure still ate food to maintain his body.
Only to teach the dhamma. When the job was done, he let himself die.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
Zenny
Posts: 999
Joined: Wed May 12, 2021 12:09 pm

Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by Zenny »

un8- wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:09 am
Zenny wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:53 am
un8- wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:25 am

Not to an enlightened being. An enlightened being doesn't "have" a body, they are disjoined from the aggregates.



An enlightened being doesn't see "people" either, they see just dukkha, which is the 3 poisons mixed in with a heap of aggregates.



They don't have the perversion of perception that would lead to attraction to a "body"

Well,the Buddha sure still ate food to maintain his body.
Only to teach the dhamma. When the job was done, he let himself die.
So why didn't he continue to teach?
And 35 years of living with a rotten stench? Doesn't sound sensible at all.
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Maharaja
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by Maharaja »

un8- wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 7:03 am Hello, this is my first post here, and came to ask the only one important question I have regarding the dhamma, as someone who has tried to practice for several years.

From my position

- I don't know if rebirth is true or that I will be reborn, so when I die my life is over
- As a 36 year old, I have another 40-50 years at best to live, so I want to enjoy life
- Even though I know sensual pleasures are impermanent, I know pleasant feelings are Impermanent, and I know access to sensual pleasures are impermanent (I may go blind, lose my teeth, lose internet, money, etc..) I still want to enjoy sensual pleasures in the here and now

So faith, ideology, and metaphysics aside, which are things I can't verify here and now like rebirth, why should I give up sensual pleasures?

Take pornography for example, it takes zero effort to load up a website, it doesn't physically harm you, it can mentally harm you if you're obsessively addicted, but what's wrong with someone spending less than 20 minutes a day getting the urge out and then moving on? I know the pleasant feeling of an orgasm is extremely short and momentarily but in the moment it feels good and then when the feeling is gone, you move on.

No matter how many suttas I've read on this topic, or how many hours I've spent meditating, I can't rationally nor experientially arrive at a point where I give up sensual pleasures.

Thank you in advance for your input
This reply may be a bit too late, but you have to think about the drawbacks of kama-tanha (desire for sense pleasures).

Just look at alot of the worlds problems, and try to see, where are they rooted in? Think about murders, theft, robbery, rapes, cheating, lying, deceit, conflicts, selfishness, objectification (using others as tools to get things done), discriminations, arguments, global warming, etc. Where are they rooted in? It's due to people's craving for sights, sounds, scents, tastes, bodily feelings, and thoughts.

So heaven, hell, rebirth, metaphysics, etc aside. It benefits you, and others, if you remove your desire to sights, sounds, scents, tastes, bodily feelings and thoughts.
wenjaforever
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by wenjaforever »

Me personally I don't like the idea of giving up sensual pleasure. The dhamma is like a train, once you understand which train to hop into, there's not even a steering wheel on a train. It simply carries you to the destination. At one point you will get bored driving a Porsche. At one point you will get bored eating your favourite food or drink. At one point you get bored playing your favourite game or your favourite song.
money is worthless toilet paper • the tongue has no bone (a person might say one thing but it cannot be further from the truth) • you cannot teach a goat math as in you cannot teach the dhamma to a dumb person
Maharaja
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by Maharaja »

wenjaforever wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:53 am Me personally I don't like the idea of giving up sensual pleasure. The dhamma is like a train, once you understand which train to hop into, there's not even a steering wheel on a train. It simply carries you to the destination. At one point you will get bored driving a Porsche. At one point you will get bored eating your favourite food or drink. At one point you get bored playing your favourite game or your favourite song.

The problem is, you dont just get bored of one thing and then your desire is over. Once you get bored of one thing you seek another, then another, then another. And its a never ending thing. Always chasing it like a mirage. You always think the happiness is right there, so you run, only to have it move further and further away. So you spend your whole life running behind happiness, but never actually getting it. Thats why you need to develop the dasa saññā, practice satipatthana, indriya samvara, etc. Once you remove the desire for aights, sounds, smells, tastes, bodily feelings, then no matter what kind of sensory input you get, your mind is satisfied. Your mind doesnt need to depend on external environment for you to be happy then.
"භජන්ති සේවන්ති ච කාරණත්ථා
නික්කාරණා දුල්ලභා අජ්ජමිත්තා
අත්තට්ඨපඤ්ඤා අසුචී මනුස්සා
ඒකෝ චරේ කග්ගවිසාණකප්පෝ."

:candle:
Lal
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by Lal »

I hope the following post will help clarify some concepts related to this discussion.

Is It Necessary for a Buddhist to Eliminate Sensual Desires?

Getting rid of sensual desires (including sex, craving for food, etc.) is not necessary for a Buddhist in the beginning and even up to the Sōtapanna stage. Sotapannas still have cravings for sensory pleasures.

Introduction

1. I wrote this essay sometime back based on a similar question raised in a discussion forum (with a different title). The questioner stated: “Eliminating sensual desire as a lay follower doesn’t seem possible, or reasonable, especially if one plans on being in a relationship or having motivation at work. .”.

- It is a critical question. Most people have not understood that one MUST follow the Noble Path of the Buddha sequentially.
Getting rid of sense desires (including sex, craving for food, etc.) is unnecessary in the beginning and even up to the Sōtapanna stage.
- Getting to the final stage of Nibbāna (Arahanthood) is a step-by-step process.
- I recommend first reading the post through first. After that, explore the links provided to get more information.

Following the Path Is a Step-by-Step Process

2. The necessary INITIAL steps involved are:

(i) Be moral and hold the mundane five precepts (abstain from killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, outright lying, and getting intoxicated), gossiping, slandering, and harsh speech; see “2. The Basics in Meditation“. https://puredhamma.net/bhavana-meditation/the-basics/
(ii) Understand the correct “wider worldview” of the Buddha, and get rid of the ten types of micchā diṭṭhi; see “Wrong Views (Micchā Diṭṭhi) – A Simpler Analysis.” https://puredhamma.net/three-levels-of- ... -analysis/
(iii) Learn about the “deeper world view of the Buddha.” Buddha Dhamma is Paṭicca Samuppāda. Tilakkhana (anicca, dukkha, anatta nature) characterizes this world based on Buddha Dhamma; see “Buddha Dhamma – Noble Truths, Paṭicca Samuppāda, Tilakkhana.” https://puredhamma.net/key-dhamma-conce ... ilakkhana/Those scientifically oriented may want to read the section “Origin of Life.”https://puredhamma.net/dhamma-and-scien ... n-of-life/

- Those steps must be followed in that order.

3. When one starts to understand the “anicca nature” (anicca means much more than impermanence) of this world, one becomes a Sōtapanna Anugāmi. When that “correct vision” about “this wider world of 31 realms” sinks into the mind permanently, one becomes a Sōtapanna.

- One does not need to consider removing the desire for sex or any other sensory pleasure until one reaches the Sōtapanna stage. But one must abstain from IMMORAL deeds like sexual MISCONDUCT. That is a critical point that most people do not understand.

The futility of Starting at the End

4. Therefore, many people waste precious time by either first trying to suppress sensory desires or, in some cases, trying to eliminate the innate sense of “me” or “a self.”

- But if one cannot learn algebra or advanced calculus without learning how to do addition, those people will not make any significant progress. It is impossible to do so.
- Furthermore, while one may get temporary relief from the “stresses of day-to-day activities” by doing breath meditation, that will not provide the long-term release from suffering that the Buddha explained.
- Until one begins understanding Tilakkhana, one will never get to the Sōtapanna stage.

Even a Sōtapanna Has Not Given Up Sensual Pleasures

5. Even during the time of the Buddha, many lay followers attained the Sōtapanna stage and continued to live “householder lives,” too. They were married and had regular jobs. There was no need to avoid sensory pleasures, including sex.

- For example, Vishākā (or Visākā), who was the leading female lay disciple at the time, attained the Sōtapanna stage at age seven and went on to get married and have twenty-plus children.
- Many others were regular lay people with families who attained the Sōtapanna stage and continued to live that way.
Of course, those who desired higher stages of Nibbāna tried to eliminate the craving for sensory pleasures. Most of them became bhikkhus who abstain from sex and other sense pleasures.

Only at Anāgāmi Stage One Will Lose Cravings for Sensory Pleasures

6. One will abstain from sensory pleasures only after becoming an Anāgāmi. Even a Sakadāgāmi still enjoys sense pleasures, even though he/she would not have the desire to “own” things that provide sense pleasures.

- For example, a Sakadāgāmi would still enjoy some sensory pleasures, but there would be no desire to own “things that provide sense pleasure” (houses, cars, etc.).

Losing Carving for Sensory Pleasures Comes After a Deeper Understanding of Tilakkhana

7. One CAN NOT just give up sensory pleasures by sheer willpower and become an Anāgāmi. One has to comprehend the “anicca nature” at a higher level than a Sōtapanna, and then those desires will NATURALLY go away.

- That may be hard for most people to understand: how the desire for sense pleasures will naturally go away. That is why one should follow the Path SEQUENTIALLY, one step at a time.
- By the way, the sense of “me” or ” a self” will go away only at the Arahant stage!

It is Necessary to See the Harmful Consequences of Sensory Indulgences (Kāmasukhallikānuyoga)

8. However, it is also important to realize that one must avoid excessive sensory pleasures (kāmasukhallikānuyoga) and extreme ascetic practices of completely staying away from normal comforts (Attakilamathānuyoga.) The Budha recommended the “middle path,” where one would live a simple, comfortable life without going to extremes.

- Therefore, one cannot become a Sōtapanna by enjoying sense pleasures to the full, i.e., maintaining a “playboy type” lifestyle.
- When one starts comprehending the anicca nature, one’s life WILL become simple.
- Even before one gets to the Sōtapanna stage, one will start feeling nirāmisa sukha due to lessened mental stress due to this simple lifestyle.

9. Of course, one can speed up the process of the Sōtapanna stage by giving up sense pleasures. Those who take this path become bhikkhus. They voluntarily give up most sense pleasures, including sex.

- If one is to attain jhāna, one must at least SUPPRESS all sense desires. For example, in “Tapussa Sutta (AN 9.41),(https://suttacentral.net/an9.41/en/suja ... ript=latin) “. “So kho ahaṃ, ānanda, vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṃ savicāraṃ vivekajaṃ pītisukhaṃ paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharāmi.
- That means one needs to have all thoughts of sensory pleasures and akusala kamma removed from one’s mind when getting to the jhāna.
- That statement appears in every sutta describing jhāna.

The Wider Worldview

10. The teachings of the Buddha are more of a “previously unheard worldview” than a religion in the conventional sense; see “What is Unique in Buddha Dhamma?“

- According to the “wider worldview” of the Buddha, there are 31 realms in this world. Suffering in those realms decreases as one goes from the lowest four realms (apāyā), where the suffering is intense, to the human realm (where there is both suffering and happiness). There is increasingly more happiness (or less stress) in the Deva and 20 Brahma realms.
- The peaceful feeling one experiences in a jhāna is the same sensory experience by Brahmās in the corresponding realms. But getting to jhāna has nothing to do with getting to magga phala, even though jhāna can provide a better mindset for insight meditation.
- None of those realms can provide permanent happiness because a lifetime in any realm is finite. Even though the Brahma realms have very long lifetimes, one would eventually die and be reborn in any realm.
- If one’s goal is permanent happiness, one must eventually reach the Arahant stage of Nibbāna. However, if one can get to the Sōtapanna stage, one is guaranteed to get to the Arahant stage within a few subsequent births.

Difference With Other World Religions

11. That is the main difference between Buddha Dhamma and other religions. Christianity and Islām promise permanent happiness in Deva realms, and Hinduism promises lasting happiness in a Brahma realm.

- But the Buddha taught that nothing in this world is permanent. That holds for living beings and inert things in the whole universe.
- Scientists (including Einstein) believed as recently as 100 years ago that the universe is in a “steady state.” Now science has accepted that everything in our world is in constant flux.
- Therefore, one born in any realm will die from there and be reborn in another realm.

There Is Nowhere in This World Where Suffering Ends (Anicca Nature)

12. The above sub-title summarizes the anicca nature of this world. One gets to the Sōtapanna stage by “seeing that.” When one first realizes the anicca nature of this world, one can immediately see the dangers of doing the strong dasa akusala. That realization will make one’s mind resistant to doing “apāyagāmi actions,” i.e., those that make one eligible to be born in the four lowest realms (apāyās.)

- That understanding registers permanently in the mind of a Sōtapanna and is unbreakable. That is why he/she will never do such immoral deeds, no matter how tempting.
- At that time, one will have faith in Buddha, Dhamma, and Saṅgha. One can see at that time how valuable Dhamma is. Of course, the Buddha discovered that Dhamma. It can be conveyed accurately only by a Noble Person.
- That is the reason for “unbreakable faith,” or “aveccappasāda” (avecca pasāda) in Buddha, Dhamma, and Saṅgha; see #4 of “Sotapatti Anga – The Four Qualities of a Sotāpanna.”https://puredhamma.net/three-levels-of- ... atti-anga/
- One is also said to have “Ariyakānta sila” or “unbreakable moral conduct” as a Sōtapanna. That does not mean one will not do any of the dasa akusala. But one will never again do a dasa akusala with strong kamma vipāka bringing rebirth in the apāyās. A Sōtapanna has permanently removed such a mindset.

Higher Stages of Nibbāna Come With Deeper Comprehension of Anicca Nature

13. A Sōtapanna would then get to the Sakadāgāmi and Anāgāmi stages by getting rid of the desire for sense pleasures in two stages. See "Conditions for the Four Stages of Nibbāna" https://puredhamma.net/tables-and-summa ... f-nibbana/

- Avijjā, the ignorance of the Four Noble Truths, is removed only at the Arahant stage. That is when one removes the “sense of me” or the “sense of a self.”
- It is a systematic, long process.
- As I said, one cannot expect to do advanced mathematics unless one first knows how to add/subtract, then how to do algebra, etc.
- Thus, moral conduct and getting rid of the ten types of micchā diṭṭhi are REQUIREMENTS for any stage of magga phala. Getting rid of the cravings for sense pleasures comes after that.

There Are Dangers in Craving for Sensory Pleasures

14. Finally, one may think that all one needs to do is get to the Sōtapanna stage. Because then one would be free from the apāyās. That is true. However, when one gets to the Sōtapanna stage, one will only SEE (with wisdom) the sufferings in the kāma lōka, including the Deva realms. That is Sammā Diṭṭhi, or “correct view.” It is good to focus on getting to the Sotapanna stage first (and not worry about the higher stages.)

- Still, one must start at least seeing the dangers of excessive sensory pleasures, even before the Sotapanna stage. That is necessary to get to Sammā Diṭṭhi. One would then remove the wrong perceptions (saññā) about the value of sensual pleasures at the Anāgami stage. See, “Vipallāsa (Diṭṭhi, Saññā, Citta) Affect Saṅkhāra.” https://puredhamma.net/key-dhamma-conce ... nna-citta/

As stated in the Dhammika sutta (Snp 2.14):

"Abrahmacariyaṃ parivajjayeyya,
Aṅgārakāsuṃ jalitaṃva viññū;
Asambhuṇanto pana brahmacariyaṃ,
Parassa dāraṃ na atikkameyya
."

Translated: A wise person would live a celibate life (avoiding sex), as one would avoid falling into a pit of fire. But if one is not yet at the stage of abstaining from sensory pleasures, one should abstain from sexual misconduct.

- Furthermore, sensual pleasures are not restricted to sex. Excessive attachment to ALL sensory pleasures comes under kāmasukhallikānuyoga in #8 above. Also, see “What is “Kāma”? It is not Just Sex” (https://puredhamma.net/paticca-samuppad ... s-not-sex/) and “Craving for Pornography – How to Reduce the Tendency.”https://puredhamma.net/three-levels-of- ... -tendency/

Summary

15. It is not necessary (or prudent) to try to abstain from sensual pleasures in the beginning. First, one must understand why and how such attachments lead to future suffering (in future rebirths).

- Of course, that is impossible if one does not believe in rebirth. That is why learning the worldview of the Buddha is necessary. It is a “previously unheard worldview” (“pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu“), as the Buddha repeatedly stated in his first sermon, “Dhamma­cakka­p­pavattana­ Sutta (SN 56.11).” (https://suttacentral.net/sn56.11/en/suj ... =latin#5.1) In the translation there, it is stated as “teachings not learned before from another.” I have pointed to that marker in the above link, and that verse appears several times there.
- When one starts understanding this “new teaching/worldview” (especially by comprehending Paṭicca Samuppāda), one will have confidence in the rebirth process and other doctrinal foundations like the validity of the laws of kamma.
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Mahabrahma
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by Mahabrahma »

You're assuming a lot there. It's a nice read, but taking on the qualities of a Buddha even in the Shravaka stage can put you leaps and bounds in the right direction. Imagine you're going on a long journey. Wouldn't you like to taste a bit of victory over the elements in the beginning, like that you'll have at the end? When you're assured that you'll complete your task of the trek, you'll understand and not forget the name of the Buddha, "Siddhartha", which means "one who's goal has already been completed", even from it's start. That is of great importance.
That sage who has perfect insight,
at the summit of spiritual perfection:
that’s who I call a brahmin.

-Dhammapada.
Lal
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by Lal »

You're assuming a lot there.
Please quote from the essay anything that is assumed.
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cappuccino
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by cappuccino »

Lal wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 6:23 pm
You're assuming a lot there.
Please quote from the essay anything that is assumed.
One CAN NOT just give up sensory pleasures by sheer willpower and become an Anāgāmi.
Why not
wenjaforever
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by wenjaforever »

Maharaja wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:15 pm
The problem is, you dont just get bored of one thing and then your desire is over. Once you get bored of one thing you seek another, then another, then another. And its a never ending thing. Always chasing it like a mirage. You always think the happiness is right there, so you run, only to have it move further and further away. So you spend your whole life running behind happiness, but never actually getting it. Thats why you need to develop the dasa saññā, practice satipatthana, indriya samvara, etc. Once you remove the desire for aights, sounds, smells, tastes, bodily feelings, then no matter what kind of sensory input you get, your mind is satisfied. Your mind doesnt need to depend on external environment for you to be happy then.
Yes but you have to understand it yourself. Not just because someone said so. You have to taste sugar with your own tongue to know what sweet is like. The sensual realm is a phase you have to go through to understand the whole and complete dhamma. Don't take no shortcuts. You might say there is no soul, but is there a body? Do you have a physical body? Yes matter exists, but is it the ultimate truth? Do the 5 senses and your neural system exist? Does the mind exist? Yes the soul exists but it is not the ultimate truth. You can't just leap to reach the top floor, you need to take the staircase.
money is worthless toilet paper • the tongue has no bone (a person might say one thing but it cannot be further from the truth) • you cannot teach a goat math as in you cannot teach the dhamma to a dumb person
Lal
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by Lal »

cappuccino wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 6:31 pm
Lal wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 6:23 pm
You're assuming a lot there.
Please quote from the essay anything that is assumed.
One CAN NOT just give up sensory pleasures by sheer willpower and become an Anāgāmi.
Why not
The reason is precisely what I explained in the essay. It is a step-by-step process.

That step-by-step process is described in different ways in the Tipitaka. One is with the breaking of ten samyojana stepwise (three at the Sotapanna stage, two at the Anagami stage, and the final five at the Arahant stage.)
- See "Saṁyojana Sutta (AN 4.88)": https://suttacentral.net/an4.88/en/suja ... =latin#2.2

1. One first becomes a Sotapanna by comprehending the worldview of the Buddha ("tiṇṇaṁ saṁyojanānaṁ parikkhayā sotāpanno hoti.."). This leads to breaking three samyojana (bonds to the rebirth process) of sakkaya Ditthi, Vicikiccha, and silabbata paramasa.

2. Then, one becomes a Sakadagami by reducing the two samyojana of kama raga and patigha.

3. Those two are removed (and, thus, kama raga eliminated) at the Anagami stage.

4. The last five samyojana are removed at the Arahant stage. All ten are listed in the "Saṁyojana Sutta (AN 10.13)": https://suttacentral.net/an10.13/en/suj ... ript=latin

One cannot get to the Anagami stage, i.e., remove kama raga by sheer willpower without understanding the Buddha's worldview at the Sotapanna stage.
Last edited by Lal on Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by cappuccino »

Lal wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:21 pm One cannot get to the Anagami stage … by sheer willpower without understanding the Buddha's worldview
you just understand delight is the reason you're in Saṃsāra


you understand and you have will power to let go
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