Why give up sensual pleasures?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
un8-
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by un8- »

arkaprava wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 7:21 am

This is how the Buddha explains sensual pleasures :
See the bolded part, in the end he admits that they do indeed get pleasure from scratching the itch. He's not denying that scratching the itch is pleasant.

Now suppose that there was a leper covered with sores & infections, devoured by worms, picking the scabs off the openings of his wounds with his nails, cauterizing his body over a pit of glowing embers. The more he cauterized his body over the pit of glowing embers, the more disgusting, foul-smelling, & putrid the openings of his wounds would become, and yet he would feel a modicum of enjoyment & satisfaction because of the itchiness of his wounds. In the same way, beings not free from passion for sensual pleasures — devoured by sensual craving, burning with sensual fever — indulge in sensual pleasures. The more they indulge in sensual pleasures, the more their sensual craving increases and the more they burn with sensual fever, and yet they feel a modicum of enjoyment & satisfaction dependent on the five strings of sensuality.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by un8- »

Pondera wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 7:17 am
Ie. every time you watch porn and/or masturbate you are burning an image into your memory of (say) a woman engaging in sexual intercourse with (whoever/whatever).

You carry that memory with you. You are a slave to it. It brings you back to porn and/or masturbation OVER AND OVER again.
This is the only valid point you made in your post, and possibly anyone has made in this thread, so thank you.

To reiterate your point: engaging in sensual pleasure refuels the craving which further increases attachment. This is also in the sutta where the Buddha talks about lepers and their itchy wounds.

So that's one point for why someone should give up sensual desires that's not based on faith, metaphysics and unverifiable ideology. Anyone have any more?


The only other valid point was from the hillside Hermitage user, on my practice not being the right practice which is why I can't see sensuality as bad.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by un8- »

dicsoncandra wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 6:34 am
un8- wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 6:18 am
dicsoncandra wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 6:10 am

it is a gradual training and we can't expect craving to just go away from just a few days of retreat. it's less about the method but more about understanding what is going on (i.e. cause of suffering via dependent origination) and patience endurance as a lifestyle, practicing correctly and not getting lost or absorbed in things (i.e. not losing the context in our practice)
Indeed, but the gradual training has gradual results, that's why the fetters are gradually given up and one rarely goes straight to Arahantship.

So I'm looking for those gradual results as an indicator of if I'm practicing rightly or not. At least some sensual desires should be permanently given up, if one attains once return.

Otherwise how do you actually know you're practicing rightly? and not just blindly waiting for a day when a magical insight event to happen, just like jews waiting for the messiah to come, or people who keep doing the same thing over and over and hoping one day that will lead to a different result.
I sense that you aren't very clear about what the word 'understanding' mean. Two of three fetters abandoned by the stream-enterer are self-belief and rites-&-rituals attachment (includes the belief that a meditation method alleviates one from suffering). I'd say let the goal be understanding dependent origination and to actually see it within the experience and practice accordingly. As for indicators, you will be able to see that suffering is present where craving is, the experience of 'burn' that I described. It becomes clearer with practice and let this insight propel us to understand dependent origination further
I didn't use the word understanding. But has your understanding of dependent origination led to you no longer indulging in sensual desires permanently ?
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

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un8- wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 10:42 am So that's one point for why someone should give up sensual desires that's not based on faith, metaphysics and unverifiable ideology. Anyone have any more?
I don't think it is all that helpful to think about "giving up sensual desires". Sensual desires are what they are. They arise in the mind and then run their course according to conditions. It might be more helpful to think about giving up certain reactions to the sensual desires once they have arisen. Indulging them by allowing the mind to present you with a customary and ready-made "solution" is one such reaction. It's possible that you can drop that habitual reaction, and come up with a more deliberate, thoughtful response.
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by un8- »

Sam Vara wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 11:01 am
un8- wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 10:42 am So that's one point for why someone should give up sensual desires that's not based on faith, metaphysics and unverifiable ideology. Anyone have any more?
I don't think it is all that helpful to think about "giving up sensual desires". Sensual desires are what they are. They arise in the mind and then run their course according to conditions. It might be more helpful to think about giving up certain reactions to the sensual desires once they have arisen. Indulging them by allowing the mind to present you with a customary and ready-made "solution" is one such reaction. It's possible that you can drop that habitual reaction, and come up with a more deliberate, thoughtful response.
This is what I'm aiming for, but how is that done? How does one not scratch an extremely itchy itch.

The only options given so far in this thread are

- Pretend that scratching the itch isn't pleasant (denying that the pleasure is actually pleasant)(doesn't work)
- Don't scratch the itch because the ideology says so (doesn't work)
- To be a member of this club, you have to not scratch the itch (doesn't work and everyone else in the club is scratching the itch, so hypocrisy)
- Keep practicing and one day you will magically not want to scratch the itch (doesn't work)
- People who scratch itches are bad aka moral shaming (doesn't work)
- Understanding dependent origination will make you not scratch the itch (possibly, but unverfiable/unconfirmed)
- Scratching the itch will make it itchier and you'll want to scratch more (confirmed true, but doesn't actually stop the itch and usually requires will power, this is where a possible real non-willpower solution could be found)
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

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un8- wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 11:12 am
Sam Vara wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 11:01 am
un8- wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 10:42 am So that's one point for why someone should give up sensual desires that's not based on faith, metaphysics and unverifiable ideology. Anyone have any more?
I don't think it is all that helpful to think about "giving up sensual desires". Sensual desires are what they are. They arise in the mind and then run their course according to conditions. It might be more helpful to think about giving up certain reactions to the sensual desires once they have arisen. Indulging them by allowing the mind to present you with a customary and ready-made "solution" is one such reaction. It's possible that you can drop that habitual reaction, and come up with a more deliberate, thoughtful response.
This is what I'm aiming for, but how is that done? How does one not scratch an extremely itchy itch.

The only options given so far in this thread are

- Pretend that scratching the itch isn't pleasant (denying that the pleasure is actually pleasant)(doesn't work)
- Don't scratch the itch because the ideology says so (doesn't work)
- To be a member of this club, you have to not scratch the itch (doesn't work and everyone else in the club is scratching the itch, so hypocrisy)
- Keep practicing and one day you will magically not want to scratch the itch (doesn't work)
- People who scratch itches are bad aka moral shaming (doesn't work)
- Understanding dependent origination will make you not scratch the itch (possibly, but unverfiable/unconfirmed)
- Scratching the itch will make it itchier and you'll want to scratch more (confirmed true, but doesn't actually stop the itch and usually requires will power, this is where a possible real non-willpower solution can be found)
You have already had marvellous and enduring successes in refraining from scratching extremely itchy itches. For example, you gave up the pleasures of instant defecation and urination so that you could gain the approval of others, and ultimately take part in polite society. You refrain from the pleasure of speaking your mind so that you can enjoy the benefits of politeness. You might refrain from the pleasures of sleep and idleness so that you can keep your job. The same applies to every skill you have so far mastered in this life; there were costs, and you paid them. The fact that you restrict your masturbation to a private time in front of your screen rather than whenever you see an attractive person on the street means that you have already made great strides.

You were successful in these because you didn't expect instantaneous results, and you built up slowly. Conversely, when you were learning them, you weren't bedevilled with the idea that "I can't do this - it's all too difficult". You wanted to drop a lesser pleasure in favour of a greater one, so you just tried. Renunciation is a skill, not a one-off decision. Start small and build up to where you want to be. Just like taking up a musical instrument or a sport.

You might want to have a read of this article by Ajahn Thanissaro:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... candy.html
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robertk
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

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As I see it, because sense desire is easily perceived many Buddhist begin by attempting to reduce it, However the gradual elimination of wrong view is what is needed in the beginning.
It's like this sutta:
Samyutta nikaya

SN 2.16 Vasudatta Sutta: Vasudatta

Standing to one side, the young deva Vasudatta recited this verse in the presence of the Blessed One:
Deva:" As if smitten by a sword, As if his head were on fire,
A bhikkhu should wander mindfully To abandon sensual lust."

Buddha:"As if smitten by a sword, As if his head were on fire,
A bhikkhu should wander mindfully To abandon identity view."
Still , thanks to Sam vara for his note about defecating and urinating at any time. Will work on that. :tongue:
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by arkaprava »

un8- wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 10:33 am
arkaprava wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 7:21 am

This is how the Buddha explains sensual pleasures :
See the bolded part, in the end he admits that they do indeed get pleasure from scratching the itch. He's not denying that scratching the itch is pleasant.

Now suppose that there was a leper covered with sores & infections, devoured by worms, picking the scabs off the openings of his wounds with his nails, cauterizing his body over a pit of glowing embers. The more he cauterized his body over the pit of glowing embers, the more disgusting, foul-smelling, & putrid the openings of his wounds would become, and yet he would feel a modicum of enjoyment & satisfaction because of the itchiness of his wounds. In the same way, beings not free from passion for sensual pleasures — devoured by sensual craving, burning with sensual fever — indulge in sensual pleasures. The more they indulge in sensual pleasures, the more their sensual craving increases and the more they burn with sensual fever, and yet they feel a modicum of enjoyment & satisfaction dependent on the five strings of sensuality.
Yes, that is indeed the point what the mind finds pleasurable, you don't get to choose what you will derive pleasure from, you don't get pleasure from smelling your own feces, but maggots and insects enjoy crawling over feces. Some derive pleasure from atrocious acts like rape and murder. That is why the Buddha talks about the danger(adinava) of sense pleasures :
"Suppose a dog, overcome with weakness & hunger, were to come across a slaughterhouse, and there a dexterous butcher or butcher's apprentice were to fling him a chain of bones — thoroughly scraped, without any flesh, smeared with blood. What do you think: Would the dog, gnawing on that chain of bones — thoroughly scraped, without any flesh, smeared with blood — appease its weakness & hunger?"

"No, lord. And why is that? Because the chain of bones is thoroughly scraped, without any flesh, & smeared with blood. The dog would get nothing but its share of weariness & vexation."
If one, longing for sensual pleasure,
achieves it, yes,
he's enraptured at heart.
The mortal gets what he wants.
But if for that person
— longing, desiring —
the pleasures diminish,
he's shattered,
as if shot with an arrow.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

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robertk wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 11:58 am
Still , thanks to Sam vara for his note about defecating and urinating at any time. Will work on that. :tongue:
So that's why you didn't have the camera on during your Zoom sessions!

And thank you too for the SN 2.16. Very relevant here.
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by un8- »

Sam Vara wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 11:38 am

You have already had marvellous and enduring successes in refraining from scratching extremely itchy itches. For example, you gave up the pleasures of instant defecation and urination so that you could gain the approval of others, and ultimately take part in polite society. You refrain from the pleasure of speaking your mind so that you can enjoy the benefits of politeness. You might refrain from the pleasures of sleep and idleness so that you can keep your job. The same applies to every skill you have so far mastered in this life; there were costs, and you paid them. The fact that you restrict your masturbation to a private time in front of your screen rather than whenever you see an attractive person on the street means that you have already made great strides.

You were successful in these because you didn't expect instantaneous results, and you built up slowly. Conversely, when you were learning them, you weren't bedevilled with the idea that "I can't do this - it's all too difficult". You wanted to drop a lesser pleasure in favour of a greater one, so you just tried. Renunciation is a skill, not a one-off decision. Start small and build up to where you want to be. Just like taking up a musical instrument or a sport.

You might want to have a read of this article by Ajahn Thanissaro:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... candy.html
You raise some good points, but the majority of those points are due to social conditioning, not my voluntary decision. For example, in some parts of China it is acceptable to shit in the streets. Some Chinese tourists shit in the steets when they come to the west. If I had been born in those parts of China then I would do those things too.

This is also the benefit of being a monk, because the social conditioning and social norm in a monestary is conducive to renunciation.

I agree with the slow build up and skill mastery, this probably why it's crucial that a lay person observe the uposatha at least once a month, and ideally weekly. So the uposatha seems key for maintaining some level of conditioning.

I'll check out the Thanissaro link, thanks.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

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un8- wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:36 pm You raise some good points, but the majority of those points are due to social conditioning, not my voluntary decision.
Is not the idea of your voluntary decision a part of your social conditioning?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by un8- »

Bundokji wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:45 pm
un8- wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:36 pm You raise some good points, but the majority of those points are due to social conditioning, not my voluntary decision.
Is not the idea of your voluntary decision a part of your social conditioning?
Sure, but how many people fail to keep a diet and return to their former weight, despite all their intentions and will power? How come people in Okinawa or South Korea and other parts of the world like the bluezone countries, are effortlessly able to maintain healthy weight? Because of social conditioning. It's extremely hard to overcome social conditioning, that's why they say the best way to quit smoking is to never start. People born in areas with good social conditioning are extremely fortunate.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

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un8- wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:50 pm Sure, but how many people fail to keep a diet and return to their former weight, despite all their intentions and will power? How come people in Okinawa or South Korea and other parts of the world like the bluezone countries, are effortlessly able to maintain healthy weight?
I do not have any statistics to answer these questions.
People born in areas with good social conditioning are extremely fortunate.
I agree.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by Sam Vara »

un8- wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:50 pm
Bundokji wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:45 pm
un8- wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:36 pm You raise some good points, but the majority of those points are due to social conditioning, not my voluntary decision.
Is not the idea of your voluntary decision a part of your social conditioning?
Sure, but how many people fail to keep a diet and return to their former weight, despite all their intentions and will power? How come people in Okinawa or South Korea and other parts of the world like the bluezone countries, are effortlessly able to maintain healthy weight? Because of social conditioning. It's extremely hard to overcome social conditioning, that's why they say the best way to quit smoking is to never start. People born in areas with good social conditioning are extremely fortunate.
Yes, I entirely agree. Some might claim that this is due to our previous kamma which gets us born wherever we find ourselves; others would say luck. Certainly I have Thai and Sri Lankan friends who would not dream of breaking the 5th precept, and would have more difficulty in breaking the first than most westerners.

But the key point here is that you are asking about whether renunciation of sense pleasure is necessary, and if so how to do it. That's a huge advantage over the millions of others to whom such a question would never even occur.

My advice is to look at the advice you get (as you are now!) and if you choose to cut back, go slowly and carefully monitor any feedback. And be gentle on yourself.
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by un8- »

Sam Vara wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:57 pm
un8- wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:50 pm
Bundokji wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:45 pm

Is not the idea of your voluntary decision a part of your social conditioning?
Sure, but how many people fail to keep a diet and return to their former weight, despite all their intentions and will power? How come people in Okinawa or South Korea and other parts of the world like the bluezone countries, are effortlessly able to maintain healthy weight? Because of social conditioning. It's extremely hard to overcome social conditioning, that's why they say the best way to quit smoking is to never start. People born in areas with good social conditioning are extremely fortunate.
Yes, I entirely agree. Some might claim that this is due to our previous kamma which gets us born wherever we find ourselves; others would say luck. Certainly I have Thai and Sri Lankan friends who would not dream of breaking the 5th precept, and would have more difficulty in breaking the first than most westerners.

But the key point here is that you are asking about whether renunciation of sense pleasure is necessary, and if so how to do it. That's a huge advantage over the millions of others to whom such a question would never even occur.

My advice is to look at the advice you get (as you are now!) and if you choose to cut back, go slowly and carefully monitor any feedback. And be gentle on yourself.
Thank you, I appreciate your response and wise advice. This has been an ongoing battle for years, and I think many Buddhists as well who don't want to really admit it. The idea of spinning wheels and not gaining traction really bothers me that I'm afraid of getting burnt out and giving up all together, just giving in and getting lost in video games and such. I've tried so many different methods, read so many books over the years, I have hundreds of gigabytes saved of material, I can't even read another Buddhist book anymore. So that's why I wanted to hear people's opinions.

I know that I will never break the 5 precepts, so I have that assurance, the only hurdle for me now is sensual desires.

Cheers
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
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