Why give up sensual pleasures?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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un8-
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Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by un8- »

Hello, this is my first post here, and came to ask the only one important question I have regarding the dhamma, as someone who has tried to practice for several years.

From my position

- I don't know if rebirth is true or that I will be reborn, so when I die my life is over
- As a 36 year old, I have another 40-50 years at best to live, so I want to enjoy life
- Even though I know sensual pleasures are impermanent, I know pleasant feelings are Impermanent, and I know access to sensual pleasures are impermanent (I may go blind, lose my teeth, lose internet, money, etc..) I still want to enjoy sensual pleasures in the here and now

So faith, ideology, and metaphysics aside, which are things I can't verify here and now like rebirth, why should I give up sensual pleasures?

Take pornography for example, it takes zero effort to load up a website, it doesn't physically harm you, it can mentally harm you if you're obsessively addicted, but what's wrong with someone spending less than 20 minutes a day getting the urge out and then moving on? I know the pleasant feeling of an orgasm is extremely short and momentarily but in the moment it feels good and then when the feeling is gone, you move on.

No matter how many suttas I've read on this topic, or how many hours I've spent meditating, I can't rationally nor experientially arrive at a point where I give up sensual pleasures.

Thank you in advance for your input
Inedible
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by Inedible »

Concentration meditation can give you greater pleasure. The problem is that it takes time apart from pleasures of the senses to calm the mind and body. You don't need jhana to work your way through the sixteen stages of Anapanasati and it is best to do sessions including all of them. You develop the four foundations of mindfulness in the process and generate the seven awakening factors. These reduce the five hindrances by concentration and at a deeper level through wisdom. The effect is to improve your concentration meditation and bring jhana closer.
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Dan74
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by Dan74 »

un8- wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 7:03 am Hello, this is my first post here, and came to ask the only one important question I have regarding the dhamma, as someone who has tried to practice for several years.

From my position

- I don't know if rebirth is true or that I will be reborn, so when I die my life is over
- As a 36 year old, I have another 40-50 years at best to live, so I want to enjoy life
- Even though I know sensual pleasures are impermanent, I know pleasant feelings are Impermanent, and I know access to sensual pleasures are impermanent (I may go blind, lose my teeth, lose internet, money, etc..) I still want to enjoy sensual pleasures in the here and now

So faith, ideology, and metaphysics aside, which are things I can't verify here and now like rebirth, why should I give up sensual pleasures?

Take pornography for example, it takes zero effort to load up a website, it doesn't physically harm you, it can mentally harm you if you're obsessively addicted, but what's wrong with someone spending less than 20 minutes a day getting the urge out and then moving on? I know the pleasant feeling of an orgasm is extremely short and momentarily but in the moment it feels good and then when the feeling is gone, you move on.

No matter how many suttas I've read on this topic, or how many hours I've spent meditating, I can't rationally nor experientially arrive at a point where I give up sensual pleasures.

Thank you in advance for your input
Hi un8-

I would be a hypocrite if I claimed that I had abandoned sensual pleasures. I haven't.

I can share a few experiences that may or may not be useful though. In the course of an intensive meditation retreat, when the mind settles, becomes clear(er) and more spacious, one can see the short-comings of sensual pleasures. They like a distraction from our normal afflicted state. The Buddha likened their enjoyment to lepers cauterising their seeping sores with hot coals. A pretty brutal analogy, eh?

But when the mind's fermentations have been cooled (even temporarily), one can perceive the incredible lightness and freedom from the usual burdens and sensual pleasures simply lose their allure. I think a lot of it has to do with the notions of "me" and "mine" and grasping after all these desirables and seeking to consume them. Once all that is seen for what it is, well, it's a different story.

Once after an intense meditation, sensual pleasure lost its grip on me for several months. It was a very different way to be, without a sense of lack, concerns or fears.

But the conditioning runs deep, so it usually comes roaring back, unless one is careful.
_/|\_
un8-
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by un8- »

Dan74 wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 7:53 am
I can share a few experiences that may or may not be useful though. In the course of an intensive meditation retreat, when the mind settles, becomes clear(er) and more spacious, one can see the short-comings of sensual pleasures. They like a distraction from our normal afflicted state. The Buddha likened their enjoyment to lepers cauterising their seeping sores with hot coals. A pretty brutal analogy, eh?


Once after an intense meditation, sensual pleasure lost its grip on me for several months. It was a very different way to be, without a sense of lack, concerns or fears.

But the conditioning runs deep, so it usually comes roaring back, unless one is careful.
Hi Dan, yes I've also had those experiences on retreats as well. But like you paraphrased with the lepers, the itch comes back, and the longer you don't scratch the itch, the itchier it becomes until it's unbearable. I can try to distract myself, or try to plow through it, but it always comes back greater and stronger. You then see everyone else scratching themselves and feeling happy, and scratching the itch is natural too, we're meant to reproduce and have sex right? the body wouldn't produce sperm if it didn't want it to be released, the body wouldn't have taste buds if it didn't want to taste. I'm not even talking about extremes either, I don't eat much, but I enjoy a nice meal.

So there is the physical experiential component to sensual pleasures, and then the belief ideological component, and it's easier when these two things align. But in the dhamma, these two things don't align, they're at odds with each other, what the body wants is not what the dhamma allows. I'm having trouble with the belief ideological component, and I think many people who have been practicing the dhamma for a long period are too, even famous people who have been teaching the dhamma for years, even famous monks, fall back to their sexual desires.

I'd like to hear from someone who has actually conquered sensual desires once and for all, and not just temporarily (No offense to you, your post was great).
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confusedlayman
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by confusedlayman »

I think u need to see the awkwardness in body rather than lust perception and train ur mindn
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
SarathW
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by SarathW »

As a layperson, you have only to observe the five precepts and the eight precepts once a month on Uposatha days.
Generally this covers the Noble Eightfold Path to be followed by a layperson provided you have the right view.
So go for your life.
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Aloka
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by Aloka »

Here's a similar topic:

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=35075


:anjali:
Inedible
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by Inedible »

un8- wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 8:14 am I'd like to hear from someone who has actually conquered sensual desires once and for all, and not just temporarily (No offense to you, your post was great).
You won't get any answers if you only want to hear from Non-Returners and Arhats.

Outside of the four levels of Enlightenment, patience in the face of sensual desire has been known to be effective.
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confusedlayman
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by confusedlayman »

SarathW wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 8:34 am As a layperson, you have only to observe the five precepts and the eight precepts once a month on Uposatha days.
Generally this covers the Noble Eightfold Path to be followed by a layperson provided you have the right view.
So go for your life.
:twothumbsup:
So i can hear music and watch cricket match?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
sphairos
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by sphairos »

Well, if it was easy to eradicate sexual desire, the Buddha wouldn't have bothered to taught that you need to eradicate it.

If you are really eager to uproot it, then in the satipaṭṭhāna there is a section on the impurity of the body. The lustful persons are recommended to meditate on dead and rotting bodies etc. But any serious Buddhist practice must be done under the guidance of the competent teacher, and the first to-do thing is to determine with his help your type of character.

In ideal situation practicing standard samatha and vipassanā brings you to the state when the sexual passion is evaporated by the concentrated mind. But in many cases it might not be enough.
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2600htz
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by 2600htz »

un8- wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 7:03 am Hello, this is my first post here, and came to ask the only one important question I have regarding the dhamma, as someone who has tried to practice for several years.

From my position

- I don't know if rebirth is true or that I will be reborn, so when I die my life is over
- As a 36 year old, I have another 40-50 years at best to live, so I want to enjoy life
- Even though I know sensual pleasures are impermanent, I know pleasant feelings are Impermanent, and I know access to sensual pleasures are impermanent (I may go blind, lose my teeth, lose internet, money, etc..) I still want to enjoy sensual pleasures in the here and now

So faith, ideology, and metaphysics aside, which are things I can't verify here and now like rebirth, why should I give up sensual pleasures?

Take pornography for example, it takes zero effort to load up a website, it doesn't physically harm you, it can mentally harm you if you're obsessively addicted, but what's wrong with someone spending less than 20 minutes a day getting the urge out and then moving on? I know the pleasant feeling of an orgasm is extremely short and momentarily but in the moment it feels good and then when the feeling is gone, you move on.

No matter how many suttas I've read on this topic, or how many hours I've spent meditating, I can't rationally nor experientially arrive at a point where I give up sensual pleasures.

Thank you in advance for your input
Hi un8

The instruction for laypeople is "abandon sensual pleasure periodically, abstain from danger and practice the 5 precepts".

What this means is: You can experience sensuality, but when you can, sit, meditate and practice jhana (at that time you are giving up sensuality in the here and now).

That is all. Some people out of faith for the Buddha believe in rebirth and long term dangers of sensuality, so even not arriving via direct experience to that conclusion they try fully to abstain from sensuality (and become monks because of that). But that is not for everyone.

Regards.
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dicsoncandra
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by dicsoncandra »

Cause presence of craving means presence of suffering. It is the opposite of contenment. Craving creates a state of lack that not only perpetuates itself but also distracts oneself from the fact that it is that which is inherently painful. As you develop background awareness of phenomena around you (i.e. your mood, body) whilst engaging in mundane activities, you'll be more receptive of that burning sensation when craving is present. Even if one were to crave for meditation, the 'burn' is very apparent and meditating for calmness or joy is what the Buddha called meditating with sensuality, which is the wrong meditation anyway.

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StrivingforMonkhood
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by StrivingforMonkhood »

Is it really about giving sensual pleasures up?

When one sees clearly, one isn't giving up anything - one only gains liberation from all suffering :anjali:
May we all fulfill our deepest wish for happiness

We are already Buddha
un8-
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by un8- »

dicsoncandra wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 3:20 pm Even if one were to crave for meditation, the 'burn' is very apparent and meditating for calmness or joy is what the Buddha called meditating with sensuality, which is the wrong meditation anyway.
Hi, this is interesting. Do you have any sutta references where the Buddha talks about meditating with sensuality?

A thought I had is maybe I was never meditating correctly which is why sensual desires were never fully eradicated.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
arkaprava
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by arkaprava »

Actually sensuality of the objects lies in the mind. Imagine having eaten a stomach full, would you then have a desire to eat ? Or after watching porn, when you have climaxed, would you still want to masturbate ? Because there is craving in the mind, the objects are presented as "alluring", try imagining a naked female, after that imagine the skin is removed from the body to showcase the flesh , would you still feel attracted towards it ?
The point is that craving is generated by the mind, when that craving is satisfied the mind is at peace, but we misconstrue that experience. Imagine your neighbour setting fire to your house everyday, and you have to put water to stop it, that is essentially craving and its gratification.
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