Why give up sensual pleasures?

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StrivingforMonkhood
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by StrivingforMonkhood »

Pondera wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 4:40 amI wish you luck in your aspirations to stop the fap.

My advice. If you cut out looking at porn, that drastically erases your desire to fap.

It’s “cold turkey”. To simply ABSTAIN from looking at sexy images. THAT is the first step.

:anjali:

Thank you so much for your advice, dear friend!

:anjali:
May we all fulfill our deepest wish for happiness

We are already Buddha
un8-
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by un8- »

Bundokji wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 5:44 pm
un8- wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 5:22 pm Yes I'm familiar with the "Just do it" method, aka Willpower
Don't you think its implied in the framing of your question, and therefore inevitably with the answers you are receiving?
I don't understand your question.

Don't I think what is implied in the framing of my question? That I've tried the willpower method?

And therefore what inevitably with the answers I'm receiving? That people will tell me to use willpower?

Doesn't make sense, why would people tell me to use willpower if I already implied that I've tried it in my question.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
Bundokji
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by Bundokji »

un8- wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 8:19 pm I don't understand your question.

Don't I think what is implied in the framing of my question? That I've tried the willpower method?

And therefore what inevitably with the answers I'm receiving? That people will tell me to use willpower?

Doesn't make sense, why would people tell me to use willpower if I already implied that I've tried it in my question.
The question "why" is only relevant to volitional actions. In terms of volitional actions, there are reasons for following sensuality and there are reasons for abstaining from it. As your question is asking for reasons why not to follow / or to give up sensual pleasures, then it is to be expected that the answers are to be confined within this framing (giving you answers why you should give up sensuality, as per your request). The funny thing about volitional actions is that your trial and failure in the past does not make it certain that if you try harder in the future you won't succeed.
I've done it before and it works until you fall back again, but alas for now it seems like the only tool I have.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
un8-
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by un8- »

Bundokji wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 8:36 pm
un8- wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 8:19 pm I don't understand your question.

Don't I think what is implied in the framing of my question? That I've tried the willpower method?

And therefore what inevitably with the answers I'm receiving? That people will tell me to use willpower?

Doesn't make sense, why would people tell me to use willpower if I already implied that I've tried it in my question.
The question "why" is only relevant to volitional actions. In terms of volitional actions, there are reasons for following sensuality and there are reasons for abstaining from it. As your question is asking for reasons why not to follow / or to give up sensual pleasures, then it is to be expected that the answers are to be confined within this framing (giving you answers why you should give up sensuality, as per your request). The funny thing about volitional actions is that your trial and failure in the past does not make it certain that if you try harder in the future you won't succeed.
I've done it before and it works until you fall back again, but alas for now it seems like the only tool I have.

Right but in my post I also wrote
No matter how many suttas I've read on this topic, or how many hours I've spent meditating, I can't rationally nor experientially arrive at a point where I give up sensual pleasures.
So it is clear that I'm asking why in order to find better rational reasons to remove sensual desires, and perhaps better approaches/solutions, hence I also wrote
So faith, ideology, and metaphysics aside, which are things I can't verify here and now like rebirth, why should I give up sensual pleasures?
The typical response is "just do it and find out what happens", which I have many times, and like I said, it eventually results in falling back to sensual desires.

You wrote
The funny thing about volitional actions is that your trial and failure in the past does not make it certain that if you try harder in the future you won't succeed.
It doesn't mean I will succeed either. I have suppressed sensual desires many times in the past which clearly didn't get rid of them permanently or even partially.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
Bundokji
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by Bundokji »

un8- wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 8:47 pm So it is clear that I'm asking why in order to find better rational reasons to remove sensual desires, and perhaps better approaches/solutions,
Yes, which highlights the uncertainty surrounding volitional actions. If you receive a better answer, you might eventually stop. This is the logic of volitional actions.
The typical response is "just do it and find out what happens", which I have many times, and like I said, it eventually results in falling back to sensual desires.
Typical questions beget typical responses. It is typical to ask for reasons to justify volitional actions due to their uncertainty. Whether the action is indulging or abstaining (hedonism or asceticism) makes little difference. The duality of the religious vs the worldly persists. Usually, the criteria for a satisfactory answer would be highlighting something you overlooked based on your accumulated knowledge, renewing the hope for a different result.
It doesn't mean I will succeed either. I have suppressed sensual desires many times in the past which clearly didn't get rid of them permanently or even partially.
Which again bring us back to the uncertainty associated with volitional actions. There are no guarantees for succeeding or failing, but as a general rule, the harder you try, the higher the chances of success. What is even worse is that even if you eventually succeeded, the persistence of your success is dependent on not failing, so the possibility of failing remains open, nor there are guarantees that your success in this particular aspect would translate into meaningful enhancement of your overall well-being. You might abstain from sensuality and remain miserable.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
un8-
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by un8- »

Bundokji wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 9:06 pm but as a general rule, the harder you try, the higher the chances of success. What is even worse is that even if you eventually succeeded, the persistence of your success is dependent on not failing, so the possibility of failing remains open, nor there are guarantees that your success in this particular aspect would translate into meaningful enhancement of your overall well-being. You might abstain from sensuality and remain miserable.
It could also be the harder I try to get something, like trying to give up desires, the more I suffer and the less successful I am, and what is needed is giving up, which is sometimes seen in the suttas. Just like when Ananda tried all night to attain Arahantship and then attained it when he was about to give up. Also the sutta on the lute string being too tight.

As she was standing there, she said to him, "Tell me, dear sir, how you crossed over the flood."

"I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place."[1]

"But how, dear sir, did you cross over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place?"

"When I pushed forward, I was whirled about. When I stayed in place, I sank. And so I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place."


[The devata:]
At long last I see
a brahman, totally unbound,
who without pushing forward,
without staying in place,
has crossed over
the entanglements
of the world.

In the twenty-five years
since I went forth,
I have not found peace of mind,
even as long as a finger-snap.

Since I couldn’t get my mind unified,
I was racked by desire for pleasures of the senses.
Wailing, with outstretched arms,
I left my dwelling.

Shall I … or shall I slit my wrists?
What’s the point of living?
For how on earth can one such as me die
after resigning the training?

Then I picked up a razor,
I sat on a cot:
the razor was ready
to slice my vein.

Then the realization
came upon me—
the danger became clear,
and I was firmly disillusioned.

Then my mind was freed—
see the excellence of the teaching!
I’ve attained the three knowledges,
and fulfilled the Buddha’s instructions.

There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
Bundokji
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Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:57 pm

Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by Bundokji »

un8- wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 9:23 pm It could also be the harder I try to get something, like trying to give up desires, the more I suffer and the less successful I am, and what is needed is giving up, which is sometimes seen in the suttas. Just like when Ananda tried all night to attain Arahantship and then attained it when he was about to give up. Also the sutta on the lute string being too tight.
Indeed, but the general rule is confirmed by the story of Ven Ananda. Had he not tried hard, he would not have attained Arahanthood. The act of resting or giving up could be accidental unless one confuses correlation with causation. Had he given up without getting enlightened, the general rule persists that he should have tried harder without complacency. Either way, the uncertainty of volitional actions persists.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
un8-
Posts: 747
Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2021 6:49 am

Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by un8- »

Bundokji wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 9:32 pm
un8- wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 9:23 pm It could also be the harder I try to get something, like trying to give up desires, the more I suffer and the less successful I am, and what is needed is giving up, which is sometimes seen in the suttas. Just like when Ananda tried all night to attain Arahantship and then attained it when he was about to give up. Also the sutta on the lute string being too tight.
Indeed, but the general rule is confirmed by the story of Ven Ananda. Had he not tried hard, he would not have attained Arahanthood. The act of resting or giving up could be accidental unless one confuses correlation with causation. Had he given up without getting enlightened, the general rule persists that he should have tried harder without complacency. Either way, the uncertainty of volitional actions persists.
But trying harder worked for him until it didn't, at a certain point it no longer worked for him, and when he dialed it back a bit, it clicked in. Hence not pushing forward, not staying in place.

It's also contradictory to say that you should try harder even though voltional actions are uncertain. That's like saying keep digging for gold even though it's uncertain that digging will get you gold.

Anyway, to me it sounds like all the puzzle pieces need to fit, like balancing rocks on eachother, you need just the right amount of everything.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
Bundokji
Posts: 6481
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:57 pm

Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by Bundokji »

un8- wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 9:44 pm But trying harder worked for him until it didn't, at a certain point it no longer worked for him, and when he dialed it back a bit, it clicked in. Hence not pushing forward, not staying in place.

It's also contradictory to say that you should try harder even though voltional actions are uncertain. That's like saying keep digging for gold even though it's uncertain that digging will get you gold.

Anyway, to me it sounds like all the puzzle pieces need to fit, like balancing rocks on eachother, you need just the right amount of everything.
Trying harder does not necessarily means using more force, but the struggle to get something right in order to achieve a desirable outcome. If one is accustomed to using force, then loosening the grip would require effort challenging existing habits and tendency, so the notion of trying harder persists as well as the ambiguity of volitional actions.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
un8-
Posts: 747
Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2021 6:49 am

Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by un8- »

Bundokji wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 9:56 pm
un8- wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 9:44 pm But trying harder worked for him until it didn't, at a certain point it no longer worked for him, and when he dialed it back a bit, it clicked in. Hence not pushing forward, not staying in place.

It's also contradictory to say that you should try harder even though voltional actions are uncertain. That's like saying keep digging for gold even though it's uncertain that digging will get you gold.

Anyway, to me it sounds like all the puzzle pieces need to fit, like balancing rocks on eachother, you need just the right amount of everything.
Trying harder does not necessarily means using more force, but the struggle to get something right in order to achieve a desirable outcome. If one is accustomed to using force, then loosening the grip would require effort challenging existing habits and tendency, so the notion of trying harder persists as well as the ambiguity of volitional actions.
Which then means we're moving away from willpower and back to the drawing board to determine what it is that needs to be done, which goes back to my original post. Me asking the question, according to what you just wrote, would be considered "trying harder without using more force".
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
Bundokji
Posts: 6481
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:57 pm

Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by Bundokji »

un8- wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 10:11 pm Which then means we're moving away from willpower and back to the drawing board to determine what it is that needs to be done, which goes back to my original post. Me asking the question, according to what you just wrote, would be considered "trying harder without using more force".
Maybe you are drawing parallels between willpower and excessive force in the sense that the terms "power" and "force" seem to correlate nicely. However, that does not change the nature of your inquiry which is still based on volitional actions and what should be dome in reliance of them.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
un8-
Posts: 747
Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2021 6:49 am

Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by un8- »

Bundokji wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 10:22 pm
un8- wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 10:11 pm Which then means we're moving away from willpower and back to the drawing board to determine what it is that needs to be done, which goes back to my original post. Me asking the question, according to what you just wrote, would be considered "trying harder without using more force".
Maybe you are drawing parallels between willpower and excessive force in the sense that the terms "power" and "force" seem to correlate nicely. However, that does not change the nature of your inquiry which is still based on volitional actions and what should be dome in reliance of them.
So then what are my options? Not to inquire? Keep digging/trying and wait for a magical event to happen? Do nothing and give up?

When is it not based on voltional actions? The path is fabricated is it not?
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
Bundokji
Posts: 6481
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:57 pm

Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by Bundokji »

un8- wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 10:25 pm So then what are my options? Not to inquire? Keep digging/trying and wait for a magical event to happen? Do nothing and give up?

When is it not based on voltional actions? The path is fabricated is it not?
The options could be limited by our imaginations. For example, how about castration? if the goal is to give up sensual pleasures, then it could be a good option.

The question when operates in time, so does volitional actions, so your question "when is it not based on volitional actions" does not make much sense. And yes, the path is fabricated. What are you trying to say?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
un8-
Posts: 747
Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2021 6:49 am

Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by un8- »

Bundokji wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 10:32 pm
un8- wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 10:25 pm So then what are my options? Not to inquire? Keep digging/trying and wait for a magical event to happen? Do nothing and give up?

When is it not based on voltional actions? The path is fabricated is it not?
The options could be limited by our imaginations. For example, how about castration? if the goal is to give up sensual pleasures, then it could be a good option.

The question when operates in time, so does volitional actions, so your question "when is it not based on volitional actions" does not make much sense. And yes, the path is fabricated. What are you trying to say?
Has castration worked for you?
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
Bundokji
Posts: 6481
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:57 pm

Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by Bundokji »

un8- wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 10:34 pm Has castration worked for you?
I did not complain about giving up sensual pleasures.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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