Why give up sensual pleasures?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
mjaviem
Posts: 2302
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:06 pm

Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by mjaviem »

Alino wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 4:49 am ... observing drawbacks of sensual things. Again and again, until drawbacks will appear spontaneously...
:goodpost:
StrivingforMonkhood wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 3:07 am ...
See the futility of desire, and the terrible suffering it brings.
...
:goodpost:
Pondera wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 7:17 am ... And - just as meat eaters contribute to the wide spread slaughter of animals - those who fap contribute to the exploitation of young women.

Stop now. Don’t contribute to that industry....
:goodpost:
MN 13: Mahādukkhakkhandhasutta —Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote:...
“Again, with sensual pleasures as the cause, sensual pleasures as the source, sensual pleasures as the basis, the cause being simply sensual pleasures, people indulge in misconduct of body, speech, and mind. Having done so, on the dissolution of the body, after death, they reappear in states of deprivation, in an unhappy destination, in perdition, even in hell. Now this is a danger in the case of sensual pleasures, a mass of suffering in the life to come, having sensual pleasures as its cause, sensual pleasures as its source, sensual pleasures as its basis, the cause being simply sensual pleasures.
...
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
User avatar
StrivingforMonkhood
Posts: 301
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2020 4:27 pm

Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by StrivingforMonkhood »

Alino wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 4:49 amYou will never be able to abandon sensuality until you stop taking delight in it.

Absolutely! That is truth. You have to see the futility in the desire. You must know it deep in your bones.


Peace and enlightenment. :anjali:
May we all fulfill our deepest wish for happiness

We are already Buddha
Manuel79
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2021 9:29 am

Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by Manuel79 »

un8- wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 7:03 am Hello, this is my first post here, and came to ask the only one important question I have regarding the dhamma, as someone who has tried to practice for several years.

From my position

- I don't know if rebirth is true or that I will be reborn, so when I die my life is over
- As a 36 year old, I have another 40-50 years at best to live, so I want to enjoy life
- Even though I know sensual pleasures are impermanent, I know pleasant feelings are Impermanent, and I know access to sensual pleasures are impermanent (I may go blind, lose my teeth, lose internet, money, etc..) I still want to enjoy sensual pleasures in the here and now

So faith, ideology, and metaphysics aside, which are things I can't verify here and now like rebirth, why should I give up sensual pleasures?

Take pornography for example, it takes zero effort to load up a website, it doesn't physically harm you, it can mentally harm you if you're obsessively addicted, but what's wrong with someone spending less than 20 minutes a day getting the urge out and then moving on? I know the pleasant feeling of an orgasm is extremely short and momentarily but in the moment it feels good and then when the feeling is gone, you move on.

No matter how many suttas I've read on this topic, or how many hours I've spent meditating, I can't rationally nor experientially arrive at a point where I give up sensual pleasures.

Thank you in advance for your input
Hello,
You don't have to give up sensual pleasures. What you have to give up is greed, ill will and delusion towards sensual pleasures.
There is no problem on enjoying sensual plesures as long as they don't raise greed or ill will in you.
The problem is that we are adicts to sensual plesures, so the only way to abandon this adiction is to say no to a lot of sensual plasures:
The only reason you’re not seeing sense desires as a problem of addiction is because you are refusing to give them up. All you need
to do is say “no” to sensual cravings that manifest in your day-today life and then very quickly you will feel how deeply addicted you
are. You’re never going to see how addicted to cigarettes, alcohol or heroin you are until you try to quit. That’s when you will feel the
weight of it. So the necessary step for giving up an addiction is to stop giving in to it even while you still want to. By restraining yourself
physically, your dependence will become more apparent. Then you will have to be willing to accept and endure the inevitable pains of withdrawal. For as long as it takes.
An alcoholic don't have to give up visiting pubs, what he has to give up is drinking alcohol, you can go to a pub and just drink a coke, the problem is that this isn't going to work, if an alcoholic goes to a pub is going to get drunk for sure.

The reason to give up greed, ill will and delusion should be obvios for you, it isn't just because you don't want to be reborn, it's because yo want to stop suffering here and know in this life:
  • dukkha (suffering, incapable of satisfying, painful) is an innate characteristic of existence in the realm of samsara;
  • samudaya (origin, arising) of this dukkha, which arises or "comes together" with taṇhā ("craving, desire or attachment");
  • nirodha (cessation, ending) of this dukkha can be attained by the renouncement or letting go of this taṇhā; [7][8][9][10]
  • magga (path, Noble Eightfold Path) is the path leading to renouncement of tanha and cessation of dukkha. [11][12]
This book is free, you can read:
5. Addiction to Sensuality—33
6. No Need to Say No to Everything—39
I think that the explanation is very clear, why you have to abandon desire and what pleasures you don't need to say no.
https://www.hillsidehermitage.org/new-book/
Anyway if you still have doubt's after reading just ask.

Metta
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22391
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by Ceisiwr »

For a higher pleasure of course, namely Jhana. Then see the drawback of even that refined pleasure.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
auto
Posts: 4582
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by auto »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:21 pm For a higher pleasure of course, namely Jhana. Then see the drawback of even that refined pleasure.
yo,
In heaven, the senses are replete with sensuality by default. The 'higher pleasure' is in a sense of knowing the extent or how far the sensual pleasures are ultimate - which means the senses will be satisfied before nāmarūpa ceases.
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 12879
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
Contact:

Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by cappuccino »

un8- wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 7:03 am From my position

I don't know if rebirth is true or that I will be reborn, so when I die my life is over

No matter how many suttas I've read on this topic, or how many hours I've spent meditating, I can't rationally nor experientially arrive at a point where I give up sensual pleasures.
this is related


lack of context, not caring
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 12879
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
Contact:

Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by cappuccino »

this is the answer


Araka's Teaching

:candle: :candle:
mabw
Posts: 125
Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2021 3:10 pm

Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by mabw »

Dan74 wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 9:27 pm
“Seeing thus, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple experiences revulsion towards the eye, forms, eye-consciousness, eye-contact, and whatever feeling arises with eye-contact as condition—whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant … towards the mind, mental phenomena, mind-consciousness, mind-contact, and whatever feeling arises with mind-contact as condition…. Experiencing revulsion, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion his mind is liberated. When it is liberated there comes the knowledge: ‘It’s liberated.’ He understands: ‘Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of being.’
https://suttacentral.net/sn35.235/en/bodhi
Sorry if this has been discussed. May I have some details on "revulsion" used here? I've come across this in various suttas. In everyday English, I'll say "revulsion" involves anger. Cambridge defines it thus:

a strong, often sudden, feeling that something is extremely unpleasant

It seems to me revulsion is a rather negative state of mind.
User avatar
Dan74
Posts: 4529
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:12 pm
Location: Switzerland

Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by Dan74 »

mabw wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 3:37 pm
Dan74 wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 9:27 pm
“Seeing thus, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple experiences revulsion towards the eye, forms, eye-consciousness, eye-contact, and whatever feeling arises with eye-contact as condition—whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant … towards the mind, mental phenomena, mind-consciousness, mind-contact, and whatever feeling arises with mind-contact as condition…. Experiencing revulsion, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion his mind is liberated. When it is liberated there comes the knowledge: ‘It’s liberated.’ He understands: ‘Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of being.’
https://suttacentral.net/sn35.235/en/bodhi
Sorry if this has been discussed. May I have some details on "revulsion" used here? I've come across this in various suttas. In everyday English, I'll say "revulsion" involves anger. Cambridge defines it thus:

a strong, often sudden, feeling that something is extremely unpleasant

It seems to me revulsion is a rather negative state of mind.
I have no Pali, but yeah, revulsion sounds too strong to me. I wonder if the intended meaning is more like a tuning away, or a disillusionment?

But I think the overall import is clear, no? The sense-objects and the mind-objects are not to be clung to, a sense of dispassion, of equanimity if to be cultivated in regards to them.
_/|\_
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22391
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Something that has helped me is in viewing it as giving up one kind of pleasure for a more refined one.
There are these five kinds of sensual stimulation. What five? Sights known by the eye that are likable, desirable, agreeable, pleasant, sensual, and arousing. Sounds known by the ear … Smells known by the nose … Tastes known by the tongue … Touches known by the body that are likable, desirable, agreeable, pleasant, sensual, and arousing. These are the five kinds of sensual stimulation. The pleasure and happiness that arise from these five kinds of sensual stimulation is called sensual pleasure.

There are those who would say that this is the highest pleasure and happiness that sentient beings experience. But I don’t grant them that. Why is that? Because there is another pleasure that is finer than that. And what is that pleasure? It’s when a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. This is a pleasure that is finer than that.

There are those who would say that this is the highest pleasure and happiness that sentient beings experience. But I don’t grant them that. Why is that? Because there is another pleasure that is finer than that. And what is that pleasure? It’s when, as the placing of the mind and keeping it connected are stilled, a mendicant enters and remains in the second absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of immersion, with internal clarity and confidence, and unified mind, without placing the mind and keeping it connected. …

There is another pleasure that is finer than that. And what is that pleasure? It’s when, with the fading away of rapture, a mendicant enters and remains in the third absorption, where they meditate with equanimity, mindful and aware, personally experiencing the bliss of which the noble ones declare, ‘Equanimous and mindful, one meditates in bliss.’ …

There is another pleasure that is finer than that. And what is that pleasure? It’s when, giving up pleasure and pain, and ending former happiness and sadness, a mendicant enters and remains in the fourth absorption, without pleasure or pain, with pure equanimity and mindfulness. …

There is another pleasure that is finer than that. And what is that pleasure? It’s when a mendicant, going totally beyond perceptions of form, with the ending of perceptions of impingement, not focusing on perceptions of diversity, aware that ‘space is infinite’, enters and remains in the dimension of infinite space. …

There is another pleasure that is finer than that. And what is that pleasure? It’s when a mendicant, going totally beyond the dimension of infinite space, aware that ‘consciousness is infinite’, enters and remains in the dimension of infinite consciousness. …

There is another pleasure that is finer than that. And what is that pleasure? It’s when a mendicant, going totally beyond the dimension of infinite consciousness, aware that ‘there is nothing at all’, enters and remains in the dimension of nothingness. …

There is another pleasure that is finer than that. And what is that pleasure? It’s when a mendicant, going totally beyond the dimension of nothingness, enters and remains in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. This is a pleasure that is finer than that.

There are those who would say that this is the highest pleasure and happiness that sentient beings experience. But I don’t grant them that. Why is that? Because there is another pleasure that is finer than that. And what is that pleasure? It’s when a mendicant, going totally beyond the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters and remains in the cessation of perception and feeling. This is a pleasure that is finer than that.

It’s possible that wanderers who follow other paths might say, ‘The ascetic Gotama spoke of the cessation of perception and feeling, and he includes it in happiness. What’s up with that?’

When wanderers who follow other paths say this, you should say to them, ‘Reverends, when the Buddha describes what’s included in happiness, he’s not just referring to pleasant feeling. The Realized One describes pleasure as included in happiness wherever it’s found, and in whatever context.’”

That is what the Buddha said. Satisfied, Venerable Ānanda was happy with what the Buddha said.
https://suttacentral.net/mn59/en/sujato
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
form
Posts: 3471
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:23 am

Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by form »

If you don't control sense pleasure, you cannot meditate, if you cannot meditate, you cannot be liberated.
justindesilva
Posts: 2602
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:38 pm

Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by justindesilva »

form wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:16 am If you don't control sense pleasure, you cannot meditate, if you cannot meditate, you cannot be liberated.
The same is explained in sabbasava sutta ,MN2, when lord budda ecpresses ", Monks, the ending of fermentations is for one who knows and sees, & not for one who does not know and who does not see.
Lord budda further speaks of unarisen fermentations of sensuality. It is also explained of controlling fermentations by restraining and avoiding moments of sensuality. It is worth reading and understanding sabbasava sutta to know why we should end sensuality.
form
Posts: 3471
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:23 am

Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by form »

justindesilva wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:03 am
form wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:16 am If you don't control sense pleasure, you cannot meditate, if you cannot meditate, you cannot be liberated.
The same is explained in sabbasava sutta ,MN2, when lord budda ecpresses ", Monks, the ending of fermentations is for one who knows and sees, & not for one who does not know and who does not see.
Lord budda further speaks of unarisen fermentations of sensuality. It is also explained of controlling fermentations by restraining and avoiding moments of sensuality. It is worth reading and understanding sabbasava sutta to know why we should end sensuality.
I did not get this from and sutta, it is my personal experience.
Zenny
Posts: 999
Joined: Wed May 12, 2021 12:09 pm

Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by Zenny »

So what happened to the Buddha's marriage after 45?
He never touched his wife again?
Non buddhist Zen Practitioner.
Focus!
un8-
Posts: 747
Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2021 6:49 am

Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by un8- »

Zenny wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:21 pm So what happened to the Buddha's marriage after 45?
He never touched his wife again?

Didn't he attain Arahantship at 35? He probably didn't touch anyone (other than maybe washing someone), as he said the human body is a rotting stench.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
Post Reply