Why give up sensual pleasures?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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un8-
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by un8- »

Bundokji wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 10:36 pm
un8- wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 10:34 pm Has castration worked for you?
I did not complain about giving up sensual pleasures.
So you have given them up?
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
Bundokji
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by Bundokji »

un8- wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 10:37 pm So you have given them up?
No
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
justindesilva
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by justindesilva »

un8- wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 10:37 pm
Bundokji wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 10:36 pm
un8- wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 10:34 pm Has castration worked for you?
I did not complain about giving up sensual pleasures.
So you have given them up?
Attakilamatanu yoga or giving up total sensual desires was tried and given up by lord budda. That is when he decided on the middle path. If we train to satisfy biological desires as hunger , thirst etc. without treating them as plesant sensual desires, we are on the correct path. One thing on noble 8FP is there is a difference on practise by say upasaka and or arya puggala.
Alino
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by Alino »

Hello Un8,

As said Ajahn Jayasaro, if defilements come back again and again it means that some part of our selves want them to stay.

So the question is - do you realy want to abandon sensual sphere?

As I understand you still delight in sensual sphere. Delight is a poison itself. More we delight in something, more we welcome it and rejoice in it - more we poison our mind with it, and with more strenght it comes back and pushes us.

I suppose that, if you realy want to be free from sensual sphere, before starting sensual restraint, you need to diminish your delight in stimulations.
How to do it?
By bringing up and observing drawbacks of sensual things. Again and again, until drawbacks will appear spontaneously. It will diminish your delight in it, and therefore diminish the strenght of pressure that it exercise on you. And after month or years of practice you could start restraint again, it will be easier...

You will never be able to abandon sensuality until you stop taking delight in it.
We don't live Samsara, Samsara is living us...

"Form, feelings, perceptions, formations, consciousness - don't care about us, we don't exist for them"
un8-
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by un8- »

Alino wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 4:49 am Hello Un8,

As said Ajahn Jayasaro, if defilements come back again and again it means that some part of our selves want them to stay.

So the question is - do you realy want to abandon sensual sphere?

As I understand you still delight in sensual sphere. Delight is a poison itself. More we delight in something, more we welcome it and rejoice in it - more we poison our mind with it, and with more strenght it comes back and pushes us.

I suppose that, if you realy want to be free from sensual sphere, before starting sensual restraint, you need to diminish your delight in stimulations.
How to do it?
By bringing up and observing drawbacks of sensual things. Again and again, until drawbacks will appear spontaneously. It will diminish your delight in it, and therefore diminish the strenght of pressure that it exercise on you. And after month or years of practice you could start restraint again, it will be easier...

You will never be able to abandon sensuality until you stop taking delight in it.
Hi Alino, all that is understood, I think the key takeaway is you have to "want" to be free of sensual desires, as you said, and I think that's where Right View comes in, which is what I meant by "going back to the drawing board".

Would someone with Right View feel moral shame for indulging in sensual desires?

Would someone with Right View debate getting an xbox? or would indulging in sensual desires for them be a momentarily thing like over-eating one too many slices of pizza because they were there and accessible in the moment.

In other words, do his thoughts debate about sensual desires when the object is not in front of them, like thinking about buying an xbox, or is their indulgance purely circumstancial, like playing on an xbox that's already at the house they're visiting because it's already there.

One case is pre-planning, the other case is temptation in the moment.

The sotapanna hasn't freed himself from sensual desires yet, but what's the situation like when he does indulge in them?

something to think about
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by Alino »

un8- wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 6:35 am
Hi Alino, all that is understood, I think the key takeaway is you have to "want" to be free of sensual desires, as you said, and I think that's where Right View comes in, which is what I meant by "going back to the drawing board".

Would someone with Right View feel moral shame for indulging in sensual desires?

Would someone with Right View debate getting an xbox? or would indulging in sensual desires for them be a momentarily thing like over-eating one too many slices of pizza because they were there and accessible in the moment.

In other words, do his thoughts debate about sensual desires when the object is not in front of them, like thinking about buying an xbox, or is their indulgance purely circumstancial, like playing on an xbox that's already at the house they're visiting because it's already there.

One case is pre-planning, the other case is temptation in the moment.

The sotapanna hasn't freed himself from sensual desires yet, but what's the situation like when he does indulge in them?

something to think about
Yes, I think that if someone wants to be free from something - he gets free. If someone don't want be free - he don't gets free.

So the point is to stop delighting in something by observing drawbacks of it, in order to be des-enchanted. But there is a danger of aversion.
Wisdom way about sensual stimulations, I think, is to observe feelings as feelings, sense information as sense information. Our sense senses let us feel only 4 great elements, so if we observe sufficiently enought our senses and 4 elements we could see that mental pressure towards sensual object is just earth element arising and passing away, heat of anger is just fire element arising and passing away...

The problem why people follow their senses is because there is not enought perspective and space around it. (This perspective and space are created by practice of satipathanas. ) The mind is complitely in contact with arising phenomenas, complitely immersed in them, thinking that - this arising phenomena of pressure or heat is me, it's mine, it's for me, it's what I am...
But in reality sensual pressure is just pressure, it's an unpleasant experiance but it's just an experiance as it is, just information... It's our kamma, and if we observe it wisely, as it's manifest itself, taking distance from that phenomena - we don't create new kamma by wanting more, or don't wanting it, it's just burn it fuel out and pass away. That why Buddha called patient endurance - the supreme incinerator of kamma and defilements, the supreme ascetic practice. As Ajahn Sumedho say: patient endurance it's being at peace with unpleasant experiance.
We don't live Samsara, Samsara is living us...

"Form, feelings, perceptions, formations, consciousness - don't care about us, we don't exist for them"
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Dan74
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by Dan74 »

Alino wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 6:03 am
un8- wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 6:35 am
Hi Alino, all that is understood, I think the key takeaway is you have to "want" to be free of sensual desires, as you said, and I think that's where Right View comes in, which is what I meant by "going back to the drawing board".

Would someone with Right View feel moral shame for indulging in sensual desires?

Would someone with Right View debate getting an xbox? or would indulging in sensual desires for them be a momentarily thing like over-eating one too many slices of pizza because they were there and accessible in the moment.

In other words, do his thoughts debate about sensual desires when the object is not in front of them, like thinking about buying an xbox, or is their indulgance purely circumstancial, like playing on an xbox that's already at the house they're visiting because it's already there.

One case is pre-planning, the other case is temptation in the moment.

The sotapanna hasn't freed himself from sensual desires yet, but what's the situation like when he does indulge in them?

something to think about
Yes, I think that if someone wants to be free from something - he gets free. If someone don't want be free - he don't gets free.

So the point is to stop delighting in something by observing drawbacks of it, in order to be des-enchanted. But there is a danger of aversion.
Wisdom way about sensual stimulations, I think, is to observe feelings as feelings, sense information as sense information. Our sense senses let us feel only 4 great elements, so if we observe sufficiently enought our senses and 4 elements we could see that mental pressure towards sensual object is just earth element arising and passing away, heat of anger is just fire element arising and passing away...

The problem why people follow their senses is because there is not enought perspective and space around it. (This perspective and space are created by practice of satipathanas. ) The mind is complitely in contact with arising phenomenas, complitely immersed in them, thinking that - this arising phenomena of pressure or heat is me, it's mine, it's for me, it's what I am...
But in reality sensual pressure is just pressure, it's an unpleasant experiance but it's just an experiance as it is, just information... It's our kamma, and if we observe it wisely, as it's manifest itself, taking distance from that phenomena - we don't create new kamma by wanting more, or don't wanting it, it's just burn it fuel out and pass away. That why Buddha called patient endurance - the supreme incinerator of kamma and defilements, the supreme ascetic practice. As Ajahn Sumedho say: patient endurance it's being at peace with unpleasant experiance.
:goodpost:
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DooDoot
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

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un8- wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 7:03 am No matter how many suttas I've read on this topic, or how many hours I've spent meditating, I can't rationally nor experientially arrive at a point where I give up sensual pleasures.
The scriptures generally do not exhort lay people to give up sensual pleasures. That is why they are called "laypeople". Lay Buddhists must refrain from sexual misconduct, which means refraining from having sex with inappropriate persons. Monks & nuns must refrain from all sexual activity. The scriptures not teach lay people if they engage in sensual pleasures they will be reborn in hell. Your question appears not related to Buddhism.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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un8-
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by un8- »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 12:34 pm
un8- wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 7:03 am No matter how many suttas I've read on this topic, or how many hours I've spent meditating, I can't rationally nor experientially arrive at a point where I give up sensual pleasures.
The scriptures generally do not exhort lay people to give up sensual pleasures. That is why they are called "laypeople". Lay Buddhists must refrain from sexual misconduct, which means refraining from having sex with inappropriate persons. Monks & nuns must refrain from all sexual activity. The scriptures not teach lay people if they engage in sensual pleasures they will be reborn in hell. Your question appears not related to Buddhism.
I don't think I ever said that indulging in sensual desires leads to rebirth in hell.

However, there are several lay people who are celibate in the suttas, for example Ugga, Isidatta's brother, and Dighavu

The Buddha stated that Ugga is the foremost lay follower and is an example for all other lay people to follow
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
justindesilva
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by justindesilva »

un8- wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 1:31 pm
DooDoot wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 12:34 pm
un8- wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 7:03 am No matter how many suttas I've read on this topic, or how many hours I've spent meditating, I can't rationally nor experientially arrive at a point where I give up sensual pleasures.
The scriptures generally do not exhort lay people to give up sensual pleasures. That is why they are called "laypeople". Lay Buddhists must refrain from sexual misconduct, which means refraining from having sex with inappropriate persons. Monks & nuns must refrain from all sexual activity. The scriptures not teach lay people if they engage in sensual pleasures they will be reborn in hell. Your question appears not related to Buddhism.
I don't think I ever said that indulging in sensual desires leads to rebirth in hell.

However, there are several lay people who are celibate in the suttas, for example Ugga, Isidatta's brother, and Dighavu

The Buddha stated that Ugga is the foremost lay follower and is an example for all other lay people to follow
In chatur oga tarana sutta lord budda says
I crossed samsara not by swimming against the current and not by staying in one place, and if I push against I would be swept away and if I stay I would sink down. The statement asstaying in one place means keep enjoying sensual desires. Sinking means going in to lower realms. So we got to understand as to what happens if we keep enjoying our desires. Pushing against tide means attakilamatanu yoga. In fact what is suggested is middle way or 8 FNP. In overcoming the kama oga or desires, it is also mentioned overcoming the tides of micca ditthi and tides of avidya. We here can discuss how this links to paticca samuppada too.
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

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un8- wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 1:31 pm

The Buddha stated that Ugga is the foremost lay follower and is an example for all other lay people to follow
I think Ugga was foremost in giving. Citta and Hatthaka were the ideal models
for lay disciples?
un8-
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by un8- »

robertk wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 2:34 pm
un8- wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 1:31 pm

The Buddha stated that Ugga is the foremost lay follower and is an example for all other lay people to follow
I think Ugga was foremost in giving.
Ah perhaps, nonetheless he was still a lay follower who was prized, so it would be incorrect to say that lay people are not supposed to be celibate.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
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robertk
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by robertk »

un8- wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 2:35 pm
robertk wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 2:34 pm
un8- wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 1:31 pm

The Buddha stated that Ugga is the foremost lay follower and is an example for all other lay people to follow
I think Ugga was foremost in giving.
Ah perhaps, nonetheless he was still a lay follower who was prized, so it would be incorrect to say that lay people are not supposed to be celibate.
Yes, it is admirable.
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by dicsoncandra »

un8- wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 2:35 pm
robertk wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 2:34 pm
un8- wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 1:31 pm

The Buddha stated that Ugga is the foremost lay follower and is an example for all other lay people to follow
I think Ugga was foremost in giving.
Ah perhaps, nonetheless he was still a lay follower who was prized, so it would be incorrect to say that lay people are not supposed to be celibate.
Laypeople in general are encouraged to observe the 8 precepts once a week on Uposatha days. If the intention is to practice for liberation from suffering, then daily observance of the 8 precepts is a minimum
arising is manifest;
ceasing is manifest;
change-while-standing is manifest.

Link to website: http://dicsonstable.blog/
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DooDoot
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Re: Why give up sensual pleasures?

Post by DooDoot »

un8- wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 1:31 pm However, there are several lay people who are celibate in the suttas, for example Ugga, Isidatta's brother, and Dighavu

The Buddha stated that Ugga is the foremost lay follower and is an example for all other lay people to follow
Irrelevant. Buddha never taught most laypeople are to be celibate. Just some laypeople have chosen this themselves, such as myself. When you are a celibate, your perspective is like the following verse:
28. Just as one upon the summit of a mountain beholds the groundlings, even so when the wise man casts away heedlessness by heedfulness and ascends the high tower of wisdom, this sorrowless sage beholds the sorrowing and foolish multitude.

Appamadavagga
Most laypeople would freak out without sensual pleasures. They are born for sensual pleasures.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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