Hello, friends.
When talking about breaking the precepts, the Dhamma teaches that if you try to kill some being, for example, the bad kamma for you is bigger if the being actually dies.
It makes me wonder: if someone insults another person, and that person doesn't take the insult, as the Buddha did with Akkosa's insults, is the bad kamma lighter for the one who insulted than it would've been if the second person had taken the insult to heart?
Thank you
Akkosa Sutta and kamma
Re: Akkosa Sutta and kamma
my answer to the question is "yes"...
when you know your actions contribute to the suffering of another naturally you feel more remorse & regret
when you know your actions contribute to the suffering of another naturally you feel more remorse & regret
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
Re: Akkosa Sutta and kamma
Hi DD
I can’t support your argument with Abidhamma or Sutta.
Could you provide Sutta reference please?
What matters in Abhidhamma and Sutta is your volition. Or Cetana.
Another point is killing and latter remorse are tow different events or Kamma.
I can’t support your argument with Abidhamma or Sutta.
Could you provide Sutta reference please?
What matters in Abhidhamma and Sutta is your volition. Or Cetana.
Another point is killing and latter remorse are tow different events or Kamma.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Re: Akkosa Sutta and kamma
As with other actions, if the intention is unwholesome, then the kamma is dark. I agree with DooDoot's point that the remorse and regret resulting from seeing how one's insult affects another is important, but it might also be the case that not witnessing that pain might lead one to redouble one's efforts and create even worse intentions.
If one unintentionally insults another - for example, uses a term which pains another but has no meaning for oneself - then any remorse one feels is presumably due to the lesser fault of carelessness rather than the desire to do harm.
What is both interesting and beautiful about the Akkosa Sutta is how the dark kamma of Bharadvaja the insulter actually ends up benefitting him, because of his interaction with and teaching from the Buddha. By allowing him to see the folly of his actions, the Buddha leads him to understanding and to the going forth. Bharadvaja might well have come to this position by another means (his previous kamma presumably being very good) but the sutta seems to show that witnessing the Buddha's response was extremely salutary.
If one unintentionally insults another - for example, uses a term which pains another but has no meaning for oneself - then any remorse one feels is presumably due to the lesser fault of carelessness rather than the desire to do harm.
What is both interesting and beautiful about the Akkosa Sutta is how the dark kamma of Bharadvaja the insulter actually ends up benefitting him, because of his interaction with and teaching from the Buddha. By allowing him to see the folly of his actions, the Buddha leads him to understanding and to the going forth. Bharadvaja might well have come to this position by another means (his previous kamma presumably being very good) but the sutta seems to show that witnessing the Buddha's response was extremely salutary.
Re: Akkosa Sutta and kamma
What is the link to Akisa Sutta?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Re: Akkosa Sutta and kamma
Sorry, are you referring to my post above?
If you are asking where to find it, as opposed to how my post relates to it, it's here:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
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Re: Akkosa Sutta and kamma
Kamma and vipaka is quite complex and while reading akkosa sutta we can understand that the intellectual or level of enlightenment of the doer of an action has a weight on kamma vipaka. It is explained in Lona pala sutta.Sam Vara wrote: ↑Tue Jul 13, 2021 8:14 am As with other actions, if the intention is unwholesome, then the kamma is dark. I agree with DooDoot's point that the remorse and regret resulting from seeing how one's insult affects another is important, but it might also be the case that not witnessing that pain might lead one to redouble one's efforts and create even worse intentions.
If one unintentionally insults another - for example, uses a term which pains another but has no meaning for oneself - then any remorse one feels is presumably due to the lesser fault of carelessness rather than the desire to do harm.
What is both interesting and beautiful about the Akkosa Sutta is how the dark kamma of Bharadvaja the insulter actually ends up benefitting him, because of his interaction with and teaching from the Buddha. By allowing him to see the folly of his actions, the Buddha leads him to understanding and to the going forth. Bharadvaja might well have come to this position by another means (his previous kamma presumably being very good) but the sutta seems to show that witnessing the Buddha's response was extremely salutary.
Hence one may read the lona pala sutta in this regard.
Re: Akkosa Sutta and kamma
Yes, that's what I meant by the presumption of Bharadvaja's good kamma.justindesilva wrote: ↑Tue Jul 13, 2021 8:34 amKamma and vipaka is quite complex and while reading akkosa sutta we can understand that the intellectual or level of enlightenment of the doer of an action has a weight on kamma vipaka. It is explained in Lona pala sutta.Sam Vara wrote: ↑Tue Jul 13, 2021 8:14 am As with other actions, if the intention is unwholesome, then the kamma is dark. I agree with DooDoot's point that the remorse and regret resulting from seeing how one's insult affects another is important, but it might also be the case that not witnessing that pain might lead one to redouble one's efforts and create even worse intentions.
If one unintentionally insults another - for example, uses a term which pains another but has no meaning for oneself - then any remorse one feels is presumably due to the lesser fault of carelessness rather than the desire to do harm.
What is both interesting and beautiful about the Akkosa Sutta is how the dark kamma of Bharadvaja the insulter actually ends up benefitting him, because of his interaction with and teaching from the Buddha. By allowing him to see the folly of his actions, the Buddha leads him to understanding and to the going forth. Bharadvaja might well have come to this position by another means (his previous kamma presumably being very good) but the sutta seems to show that witnessing the Buddha's response was extremely salutary.
Hence one may read the lona pala sutta in this regard.
Re: Akkosa Sutta and kamma
Yes, i imagine you can't.
Are you saying what is described below will occur to the same extent if the killing is not successful? Do you think a person with a heart of forgiveness will prosecute a fool in court for a non-offensive act?
137. He who inflicts violence on those who are unarmed, and offends those who are inoffensive, will soon come upon one of these ten states:
138-140 Sharp pain, or disaster, bodily injury, serious illness, or derangement of mind, trouble from the government, or grave charges, loss of relatives, or loss of wealth, or houses destroyed by ravaging fire; upon dissolution of the body that ignorant man is born in hell.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .budd.html
In the Vinaya, can a monk incur a Pārājika (automatic expulsion from the Sangha) if another person does not die?And what, mendicants, is the fear of punishment? It’s when someone sees that the kings have arrested a bandit, a criminal, and subjected them to various punishments — whipping, caning, and clubbing; cutting off hands or feet, or both; cutting off ears or nose, or both; the ‘porridge pot’, the ‘shell-shave’, the ‘demon’s mouth’, the ‘garland of fire’, the ‘burning hand’, the ‘grass blades’, the ‘bark dress’, the ‘antelope’, the ‘meat hook’, the ‘coins’, the ‘caustic pickle’, the ‘twisting bar’, the ‘straw mat’; being splashed with hot oil, being fed to the dogs, being impaled alive, and being beheaded.
https://suttacentral.net/an4.121/en/sujato
In Sri Lanka, what does the Penal Code (page 371) contain death penalty for murder but only 10 years prison for attempted murder?In analyzing offenses for the purpose of determining penalties, the
Vibhaṅga divides an action into five factors: the effort, the perception
under which it is made, the intention motivating it, the object at which it is
aimed, and the result. In some of the rules, all five factors play a role in
determining what is and is not a full offense. In others, only two, three, or
four play a role. For example, under the pārājika rule forbidding murder,
all five factors have to be present for a full offense: The object has to be a
human being, the bhikkhu has to perceive him/her as a living being, he
has to have murderous intent, he has to make an effort for the person to
die, and the person has to die...
Result: If he tries to kill a person,
but only succeeds in injuring him, he incurs a thullaccaya
https://www.dhammatalks.org/Archive/Wri ... 200826.pdf
The above is irrelevant to the topic. The relevant topic is if i get inwardly angry at my mother but engage in verbal restraint , I feel much better & have less remorse if i get verbally angry at my mother .
Since the Buddha never included bad thoughts within the definition of sila (morality), obviously outwards acts of kamma are much worse than inner thoughts of hate & lust.
If thoughts had the same kammic results as verbal & bodily actions then the practise of moral restraint would not matter.
Remorse can be a result (vipaka) of kamma. The suttas say:
For a person endowed with virtue, consummate in virtue, there is no need for an act of will, 'May freedom from remorse arise in me.' It is in the nature of things that freedom from remorse arises in a person endowed with virtue, consummate in virtue.
AN 11.2
And what is the result of kamma? The result of kamma is of three sorts, I tell you: that which arises right here & now, that which arises later [in this lifetime], and that which arises following that. This is called the result of kamma.
AN 6.63
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
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Re: Akkosa Sutta and kamma
In the case of intentional killing, for the kamma to come to completion depends on something external to the killer, namely, the termination of the life faculty in his victim.Haniver wrote: ↑Mon Jul 12, 2021 10:26 pm Hello, friends.
When talking about breaking the precepts, the Dhamma teaches that if you try to kill some being, for example, the bad kamma for you is bigger if the being actually dies.
It makes me wonder: if someone insults another person, and that person doesn't take the insult, as the Buddha did with Akkosa's insults, is the bad kamma lighter for the one who insulted than it would've been if the second person had taken the insult to heart?
But the four kinds of unskilful verbal kamma differ from killing in that nothing external is required for their completion. If I tell you a deliberate lie, for example, then I commit the akusala kamma of false speech merely by speaking the falsehood to you. The completion of the kamma does not depend on your believing my lie. Even if you disbelieve me, even if you don't understand what I'm saying, or even if you don't hear me, will make no difference at all to the fact of transgression. Nor will these variables affect the weightiness of the transgression.
The above applies also to divisive speech, harsh speech and frivolous speech. And it applies both to kammic weightiness and to legal weightiness in the context of Vinaya offences.
For example, in the case of false speech, the Vinaya offence is equally weighty whether or not anyone believes the bhikkhu's lies. In the case of divisive speech, the offence is the same whether or not the bhikkhu succeeds in sowing division. In the case of insulting speech, it's the same whether or not the victim feels upset. And in the case of frivolous speech, it's the same offence whether or not anyone laughs when a bhikkhu tells one of the prohibited kinds of jokes (i.e., jesting about the Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha or training).
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
Re: Akkosa Sutta and kamma
Venerable. It appears the sutta below may be relevant to what you posted from the Vinaya.
(1) “Bhikkhus, the destruction of life, repeatedly pursued, developed, and cultivated, is conducive to hell, to the animal realm, and to the sphere of afflicted spirits; for one become human the destruction of life at minimum conduces to a short life span.
(2) “Taking what is not given, repeatedly pursued, developed, and cultivated, is conducive to hell, to the animal realm, and to the sphere of afflicted spirits; for one become human taking what is not given at minimum conduces to loss of wealth.
(3) “Sexual misconduct, repeatedly pursued, developed, and cultivated, is conducive to hell, to the animal realm, and to the sphere of afflicted spirits; for one become human sexual misconduct at minimum conduces to enmity and rivalry.
(4) “False speech, repeatedly pursued, developed, and cultivated, is conducive to hell, to the animal realm, and to the sphere of afflicted spirits; for one become human false speech at minimum conduces to false accusations.
(5) “Divisive speech, repeatedly pursued, developed, and cultivated, is conducive to hell, to the animal realm, and to the sphere of afflicted spirits; for one become human divisive speech at minimum conduces to being divided from one’s friends.
(6) “Harsh speech, repeatedly pursued, developed, and cultivated, is conducive to hell, to the animal realm, and to the sphere of afflicted spirits; for one become human harsh speech at minimum conduces to disagreeable sounds.
(7) “Idle chatter, repeatedly pursued, developed, and cultivated, is conducive to hell, to the animal realm, and to the sphere of afflicted spirits; for one become human idle chatter at minimum conduces to others distrusting one’s words.
(8) “Drinking liquor and wine, repeatedly pursued, developed, and cultivated, is conducive to hell, to the animal realm, and to the sphere of afflicted spirits; for one become human drinking liquor and wine at minimum conduces to madness .”
AN 8.40
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.
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https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
Re: Akkosa Sutta and kamma
Thank you Bhante, this answers my questionDhammanando wrote: ↑Wed Jul 14, 2021 7:08 am But the four kinds of unskilful verbal kamma differ from killing in that nothing external is required for their completion.
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Re: Akkosa Sutta and kamma
sorry its misunderstanding from your side. if someone hurts buddha its is near to heavy karma despite buddha dont have slight anger.. if someone use same insult on commoner and even if commander attempts to jump of cliff due to depression on hearing bad words.. it will be less bad karma for abuser compared to abusing arhant ...
this is how I understand. karma intensity depends on receivers merit and virtue as well as abusers merit and virtue..
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
Re: Akkosa Sutta and kamma
i don't post misunderstandings
the suttas refer to killing a buddha. but if i hurt the buddha but buddha forgives me, my karma is no longer heavyconfusedlayman wrote: ↑Mon Aug 09, 2021 10:16 amif someone hurts buddha its is near to heavy karma despite buddha dont have slight anger..
the above is superstition. if i insult an arahant, it is not as bad karma if i insult a commoner that influences the commoner to jump off a cliff. the bad kamma of insulting arahant is my mind not understand the buddha-dhamma. but a christian or muslim who follows their religious path but insults a buddha does not reap much bad resultconfusedlayman wrote: ↑Mon Aug 09, 2021 10:16 am if someone use same insult on commoner and even if commander attempts to jump of cliff due to depression on hearing bad words.. it will be less bad karma for abuser compared to abusing arhant ...
buddha taught old kamma is to be felt. when the dhamma is 'touched by the body' kamma is understand.confusedlayman wrote: ↑Mon Aug 09, 2021 10:16 amthis is how I understand. karma intensity depends on receivers merit and virtue as well as abusers merit and virtue..
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati