Population reduction

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circuit
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Re: Population reduction

Post by circuit »

Bundokji wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 11:04 pm To avoid turning this discussion about governments, i think the overall impact of the Buddha's teachings is to reduce population even if this is not the purpose of the teachings. Monastics are not allowed to get married or to have children, and serious lay practitioners might be less inclined to have big families to dedicate more time to meditation.
i bet you mean Monastics are not allowed to get married or to have sex.

because many people ordain after have children..... then they give up,
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Sam Vara
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Re: Population reduction

Post by Sam Vara »

circuit wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 2:24 am
Sam Vara wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:30 pm Topic now split so that those who want to discuss population reduction can do so here, and those wanting to address the issues of monks accepting medicines can do so in the new thread of that name.

Please could posters note that these are both in General Theravāda Discussion, so any posts about conspiracy theories are likely to be removed as being off-topic.
what? Dhammawheel now facilitate a discussion on "population reduction" topic?
Yes, why not, providing it stays within the bounds of the OP, which is about canonical references to such.
isn't it a "tiracchanakatha"
It wouldn't seem so, and in any case a more relevant question is whether it is within the ToS.
i wonder why a "Dhammawheel sotapanna" would start a "tiracchanakatha" topic for "discussion"...?
You are free to ask him, but not on this thread, please.
Bundokji
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Re: Population reduction

Post by Bundokji »

circuit wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 5:34 am
Bundokji wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 11:04 pm To avoid turning this discussion about governments, i think the overall impact of the Buddha's teachings is to reduce population even if this is not the purpose of the teachings. Monastics are not allowed to get married or to have children, and serious lay practitioners might be less inclined to have big families to dedicate more time to meditation.
i bet you mean Monastics are not allowed to get married or to have sex.

because many people ordain after have children..... then they give up,
Yes, you are right, monastics are not allowed to have sex, but even if they have children before taking the robe, do they still address them as son while in robes? Did Ven. Rahula have worldly son-father relationship with the Buddha after becoming monastic?

I am trying to find meaningful differences between Buddhism and worldly religions because this would extend to Mara and satan. The OP asked if population reduction can happen due to Mara's intervention. Why would Mara of Buddhism be interested in something like that?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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DNS
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Re: Population reduction

Post by DNS »

urocentrum wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 9:57 pm
cfekete wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 6:06 pm
urocentrum wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 3:49 pm This conspiracy theory nonsense shouldn't be allowed on the forum. Conspiracy theories and those who promulgate them are dangerous.

There is nothing wrong with population planning and lowering the human birthrate until it fall below replacement levels.
Killing or harming other beings on whatever ideology is unskillful action, it doesn't matter what ideology you place behind it, be it overpopulation or climate change or a "pandemic" or whatever... It is still killing and harming and it is for you harm and suffering:
"And how is one made pure in three ways by bodily action? There is the case where a certain person, abandoning the taking of life, abstains from the taking of life. He dwells with his rod laid down, his knife laid down, scrupulous, merciful, compassionate for the welfare of all living beings."
AN 10.176
Who said anything about killing anyone? Population planning simply means limiting the amount of children people can have and I fully support this. There is nothing remotely unethical about population planning and such measures have been previously introduced in both China and Singapore.
Thanks for the clarification. On first reading, I interpreted it the way cfekete did too. You wrote about "nothing wrong with population planning and lowering birthrate" right after the conspiracy theory sentence. There is actually a conspiracy theory that the vaccine is designed to forcibly (against their will or knowledge) sterilize males and females. And some even say that the vaccine is designed to kill the recipient in about 4 to 10 years. The two sentences together look like you support that, which of course you don't. You are referring to the one-child type policies that China had.
thepea
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Re: Population reduction

Post by thepea »

Bundokji wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 11:04 pm To avoid turning this discussion about governments, i think the overall impact of the Buddha's teachings is to reduce population even if this is not the purpose of the teachings. Monastics are not allowed to get married or to have children, and serious lay practitioners might be less inclined to have big families to dedicate more time to meditation.
Middle way for certain but my point is choice.
Why not eliminate Drs and medicine this way people will die naturally and more often.
More babies and mothers die from birth complications.
Small injuries will develop into life threatening infections, elderly will not live so long.
Seems medical intervention is creating this population explosion.
Now it’s medical intervention trying to reduce the global population.
Let’s get rid of medical and move back to food for medicine.
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Re: Population reduction

Post by thepea »

BrokenBones wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 2:07 am Knowing the ignorance, anger and hostility in the world... knowing that the internet is just a reflection of this... why would you announce to the world your stream entry... it only invites derision and a wise person would know this.

Such attainments are best saved for your teachers and perhaps close Dhamma friends... anything else is just stirring up trouble for others and oneself.
Because I have the freedom of “choice” to do this.
And if I don’t exercise and defend my freedoms I face loosing them.
Is this explanation suitable?
thepea
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Re: Population reduction

Post by thepea »

DNS wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 2:57 pm
urocentrum wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 9:57 pm
cfekete wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 6:06 pm

Killing or harming other beings on whatever ideology is unskillful action, it doesn't matter what ideology you place behind it, be it overpopulation or climate change or a "pandemic" or whatever... It is still killing and harming and it is for you harm and suffering:
"And how is one made pure in three ways by bodily action? There is the case where a certain person, abandoning the taking of life, abstains from the taking of life. He dwells with his rod laid down, his knife laid down, scrupulous, merciful, compassionate for the welfare of all living beings."
AN 10.176
Who said anything about killing anyone? Population planning simply means limiting the amount of children people can have and I fully support this. There is nothing remotely unethical about population planning and such measures have been previously introduced in both China and Singapore.
Thanks for the clarification. On first reading, I interpreted it the way cfekete did too. You wrote about "nothing wrong with population planning and lowering birthrate" right after the conspiracy theory sentence. There is actually a conspiracy theory that the vaccine is designed to forcibly (against their will or knowledge) sterilize males and females. And some even say that the vaccine is designed to kill the recipient in about 4 to 10 years. The two sentences together look like you support that, which of course you don't. You are referring to the one-child type policies that China had.
In my original post the teacher I mention spoke of population positives and negatives.
Drs and medicine are population positives they caused longevity, and were bad for population growth.
The theories of medical castration and infertility and death may change my teachers POV on Drs.
annada
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Re: Population reduction

Post by annada »

thepea wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 2:03 pm I remember in school grade 9 or 10 I had a teacher and he was teaching population positives and negatives and predicting oil shortages/longevity as well as other resources based on population and exponential growth.

Now... not to start a discussion on current social theories floating around. Eg: buildinerg group/who/Georgia guides tones and the theory of a culling of the herd of 90%.

But did buddha give any sutta/prediction or indication of this time period of anything like this occurring.
A great attack from mara, etc...?
urocentrum wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 9:57 pm In my original post the teacher I mention spoke of population positives and negatives.
Drs and medicine are population positives they caused longevity, and were bad for population growth.
The theories of medical castration and infertility and death may change my teachers POV on Drs.
Maybe the Cakkavatti-Sihanada Sutta is what thepea is looking for. On the other hand eurocentrum not "Drs and medicine" are the source of the human lifespan longevity. It is morality and not doctors and drugs, this may be the answer for thepea's quest to get what the Buddha predicted. I think the currently ongoing medical tyranny is part of the agenda of mara to avoid more beings escaping from samsara.

We started from 80 000 years:
"...and from the increase in the taking of life, people's life-span decreased, their beauty decreased, and as a result of this decrease of life-span and beauty, the children of those whose life-span had been eighty thousand years lived for only forty thousand"

and we are heading to 10 years of lifespan:
"...sexual misconduct increased, and in consequence people's life-span decreased, their beauty decreased, and as a result, the children of those whose life-span had been ten thousand years lived for only five thousand."

"'Monks, a time will come when the children of these people will have a life-span of ten years. And with them, girls will be marriageable at five years old.
And with them, these flavours will disappear: ghee, butter, sesame-oil, molasses and salt. Among them, kudrūsa-grain will be the chief food, just as rice and curry are today."

And they will be grain eaters and they will respect the immoral people:
"And with them, the ten courses of moral conduct will completely disappear, and the ten courses of evil will prevail exceedingly: for those of a ten-year lifespan there will be no word for "moral", so how can there be anyone who acts in a moral way?
Those people who have no respect for mother or father, for ascetics and Brahmins, for the head of the clan, will be the ones who enjoy honour and prestige."

And a time will come in the future when the morality will increase and lifespan as well:
"... And so they will abstain from the taking of life, and, having undertaken this good thing, will practise it.
And through having undertaken such wholesome things, they will increase in life-span and beauty. And the children of those whose life-span was ten years will live for twenty years."

And we will go beck to 80 000 years when morality will be developed again:
"Let us refrain from taking what is not given, from sexual misconduct, from lying speech, from slander, from harsh speech, from idle chatter, from covetousness, from ill-will, from wrong views; ..."
"... The children of those whose life-span is twenty thousand years will live to be forty thousand, and their children will attain to eighty thousand years."
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Re: Population reduction

Post by BrokenBones »

thepea wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 4:38 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 2:07 am Knowing the ignorance, anger and hostility in the world... knowing that the internet is just a reflection of this... why would you announce to the world your stream entry... it only invites derision and a wise person would know this.

Such attainments are best saved for your teachers and perhaps close Dhamma friends... anything else is just stirring up trouble for others and oneself.
Because I have the freedom of “choice” to do this.
And if I don’t exercise and defend my freedoms I face loosing them.
Is this explanation suitable?

How on earth are your personal freedoms at risk? Electing to tell the world about your achievements or remaining silent about them doesn't seem to come under any kind of oppression I know of.

A wise person would know the shit storm that would follow such a declaration.

And suppose you're right about the bad world restricting your precious 'choices'... why would anyone be concerned with protecting personal freedoms when liberation is in their hands.

I know nothing of your history or practice... I would guess you are either a Daniel Ingram follower or a Goenka/Mahasi follower... is this correct?
thepea
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Re: Population reduction

Post by thepea »

cfekete wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 9:32 pm
thepea wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 2:03 pm I remember in school grade 9 or 10 I had a teacher and he was teaching population positives and negatives and predicting oil shortages/longevity as well as other resources based on population and exponential growth.

Now... not to start a discussion on current social theories floating around. Eg: buildinerg group/who/Georgia guides tones and the theory of a culling of the herd of 90%.

But did buddha give any sutta/prediction or indication of this time period of anything like this occurring.
A great attack from mara, etc...?
urocentrum wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 9:57 pm In my original post the teacher I mention spoke of population positives and negatives.
Drs and medicine are population positives they caused longevity, and were bad for population growth.
The theories of medical castration and infertility and death may change my teachers POV on Drs.
Maybe the Cakkavatti-Sihanada Sutta is what thepea is looking for. On the other hand eurocentrum not "Drs and medicine" are the source of the human lifespan longevity. It is morality and not doctors and drugs, this may be the answer for thepea's quest to get what the Buddha predicted. I think the currently ongoing medical tyranny is part of the agenda of mara to avoid more beings escaping from samsara.

We started from 80 000 years:
"...and from the increase in the taking of life, people's life-span decreased, their beauty decreased, and as a result of this decrease of life-span and beauty, the children of those whose life-span had been eighty thousand years lived for only forty thousand"

and we are heading to 10 years of lifespan:
"...sexual misconduct increased, and in consequence people's life-span decreased, their beauty decreased, and as a result, the children of those whose life-span had been ten thousand years lived for only five thousand."

"'Monks, a time will come when the children of these people will have a life-span of ten years. And with them, girls will be marriageable at five years old.
And with them, these flavours will disappear: ghee, butter, sesame-oil, molasses and salt. Among them, kudrūsa-grain will be the chief food, just as rice and curry are today."

And they will be grain eaters and they will respect the immoral people:
"And with them, the ten courses of moral conduct will completely disappear, and the ten courses of evil will prevail exceedingly: for those of a ten-year lifespan there will be no word for "moral", so how can there be anyone who acts in a moral way?
Those people who have no respect for mother or father, for ascetics and Brahmins, for the head of the clan, will be the ones who enjoy honour and prestige."

And a time will come in the future when the morality will increase and lifespan as well:
"... And so they will abstain from the taking of life, and, having undertaken this good thing, will practise it.
And through having undertaken such wholesome things, they will increase in life-span and beauty. And the children of those whose life-span was ten years will live for twenty years."

And we will go beck to 80 000 years when morality will be developed again:
"Let us refrain from taking what is not given, from sexual misconduct, from lying speech, from slander, from harsh speech, from idle chatter, from covetousness, from ill-will, from wrong views; ..."
"... The children of those whose life-span is twenty thousand years will live to be forty thousand, and their children will attain to eighty thousand years."
Nice find.
thepea
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Re: Population reduction

Post by thepea »

BrokenBones wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 9:46 pm
thepea wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 4:38 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 2:07 am Knowing the ignorance, anger and hostility in the world... knowing that the internet is just a reflection of this... why would you announce to the world your stream entry... it only invites derision and a wise person would know this.

Such attainments are best saved for your teachers and perhaps close Dhamma friends... anything else is just stirring up trouble for others and oneself.
Because I have the freedom of “choice” to do this.
And if I don’t exercise and defend my freedoms I face loosing them.
Is this explanation suitable?

How on earth are your personal freedoms at risk? Electing to tell the world about your achievements or remaining silent about them doesn't seem to come under any kind of oppression I know of.

A wise person would know the shit storm that would follow such a declaration.

And suppose you're right about the bad world restricting your precious 'choices'... why would anyone be concerned with protecting personal freedoms when liberation is in their hands.

I know nothing of your history or practice... I would guess you are either a Daniel Ingram follower or a Goenka/Mahasi follower... is this correct?
I have the freedom to speech, I can say that I am sotapanna without any fear.

My children’s freedom, protecting innocence.

I practice dhamma as taught by Goenka, but not affiliated with his Vipassana centres anymore as I find the dhamma corrupted within them IMO since his death.
Bundokji
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Re: Population reduction

Post by Bundokji »

thepea wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 4:36 pm Middle way for certain but my point is choice.
Why not eliminate Drs and medicine this way people will die naturally and more often.
More babies and mothers die from birth complications.
Small injuries will develop into life threatening infections, elderly will not live so long.
Seems medical intervention is creating this population explosion.
Now it’s medical intervention trying to reduce the global population.
Let’s get rid of medical and move back to food for medicine.
Medical interventions is only one contributing factor to what you described as population explosion. Technological advancements in general are other contributing factors. Humans have the tendency to control, and technology strengthen that tendency/belief. The whole COVID saga is a live show of human obsession with control, governments and people alike. Should population be exempt from being subject to control? i doubt it, but i have no reason to believe that medical interventions have been systematically used to reduce the population.

Now, let us assume that population is being reduced against people's choice, not through a public policy, but through some kind of social engineering that is hidden from the public eye, be it through vaccination, or through spraying some odorless substance in the air that reduces life span and weakens fertility. Apart from the legal and political implications of having such a plot revealed, i see no significance of having planet earth less populated with humans, nor the relevance to the Buddha's teachings.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
Bundokji
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Re: Population reduction

Post by Bundokji »

thepea wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 4:36 pm ------------------
I also suggest that in one of your future encounters with Mara, and if verbal communication with him is at all possible, to ask him why would he induce such an act of population reduction against people's will. I thought that he has control over other realms where most humans would be reborn, so in terms of the number of his customers and the extent of his tenure, changing realms should not make a big difference.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: Population reduction

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Just a reminder that the OP was very clear what this topic is and is not about.
thepea wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 2:03 pm Now... not to start a discussion on current social theories floating around. Eg: buildinerg group/who/Georgia guides tones and the theory of a culling of the herd of 90%.

But did buddha give any sutta/prediction or indication of this time period of anything like this occurring.
A great attack from mara, etc...?
Please do your best to remember this distinction, lest we find need to move this discussion to the Hot Topics section, or close it altogether.

:thanks:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
circuit
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Re: Population reduction

Post by circuit »

Bundokji wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 12:13 pm
circuit wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 5:34 am
Bundokji wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 11:04 pm To avoid turning this discussion about governments, i think the overall impact of the Buddha's teachings is to reduce population even if this is not the purpose of the teachings. Monastics are not allowed to get married or to have children, and serious lay practitioners might be less inclined to have big families to dedicate more time to meditation.
i bet you mean Monastics are not allowed to get married or to have sex.

because many people ordain after have children..... then they give up,
Yes, you are right, monastics are not allowed to have sex, but even if they have children before taking the robe, do they still address them as son while in robes? Did Ven. Rahula have worldly son-father relationship with the Buddha after becoming monastic?

I am trying to find meaningful differences between Buddhism and worldly religions because this would extend to Mara and satan. The OP asked if population reduction can happen due to Mara's intervention. Why would Mara of Buddhism be interested in something like that?
Okay, thanks.
Metta.
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