Paranimmitavasavatti Realms and Devas

[Dharmasherab]

I have some questions about the Paranimmitavasavatti Realms and its Devas.

1. In the Dhammacakka Sutta it mentions the Paranimmitavasavatti Deva. Is this the leader of the Paranimmitavasavatti Realms and does this refer to Mara the sentient being?

2. Are Maras a class of Devas?

3. What are the characteristics of Maras that make them distinct from other Devas? Does this include the power over other's creations?

4. In the Sutta chant English translations, it translated 'Maras' as 'demons'? But if they abide in a heavenly realm such as the Paranimmitavasavatti then shouldnt the term 'demon' be a mistranslation if Maras are a type of Devas and represent a heavenly divine community (and not a hellish demonic community)?

[Dhammanando]

1. In the Dhammacakka Sutta it mentions the Paranimmitavasavatti Deva. Is this the leader of the Paranimmitavasavatti Realms and does this refer to Mara the sentient being?

No. The word is in the plural, so it is all the Paranimmitavasavatti devas who are applauding the first sermon, except (I suppose) Māra and his host.

The Paranimmitavasavatti heaven is ruled by a deva called Vasavatti, but a small portion of it is set aside for Māra and his retinue. (However, just to confuse things a little, Māra himself is occasionally styled "Vasavatti").

2. Are Maras a class of Devas?

Yes.

3. What are the characteristics of Maras that make them distinct from other Devas?

The chief difference is their officiousness. Whereas most celestial devas are tolerant, live-and-let-live, liberal bon-vivants, the Māras are a bunch of meddlesome bureaucratic busybodies who want to run the Kāmaloka as a sort of hedonistic nanny state in which everyone will view sense pleasures as the highest good.

Does this include the power over other's creations?

Yes.

4. In the Sutta chant English translations, it translated 'Maras' as 'demons'? But if they abide in a heavenly realm such as the Paranimmitavasavatti then shouldnt the term 'demon' be a mistranslation if Maras are a type of Devas and represent a heavenly divine community (and not a hellish demonic community)?

They're actually a bit of both. The heavenly side of the Māras is that they sincerely wish for beings to perform deeds of merit of the kind whose vipāka will manifest in the sense-sphere. Dāna and sīla, for example. So long as you're doing just this and nothing more, Māra won't mess with you. Indeed there are even accounts of Māra positively encouraging such activities.

What vexes Māra and triggers him to act demonically is when someone sees the danger and drawback in sense-pleasures and starts taking steps that will lead him out of the Kāmaloka. In other words, Māra doesn't like people undertaking samatha-bhāvanā, for if they're successful in attaining rūpa and arūpa states, then they'll come to view sense-pleasures as coarse. And he certainly doesn't like people undertaking vipassanā-bhāvanā, for if they're successful in attaining supramundane states, then even rūpa and arūpa states will be viewed by them as coarse, which will place them completely outside of Māra's range. And so it's in order to proactively obstruct any such success that Māra and his host may start to play rough with people.

To give another political simile, Māra might be compared to a well-intentioned but misguided communist dictator who is reluctant to allow his citizens to travel abroad. His reluctance stems from the knowledge that once citizens see how much more pleasant life is in capitalist countries, they're sure to become disillusioned with the communist project.

[Ceisiwr]

...

[un8-]

To give another political simile, Māra might be compared to a well-intentioned but misguided communist dictator who is reluctant to allow his citizens to travel abroad. His reluctance stems from the knowledge that once citizens see how much more pleasant life is in capitalist countries, they're sure to become disillusioned with the communist project.

I like to meditate in the lions posture before going to sleep. I swear every single time I start meditating my spouse, who is already asleep, will start to make noise or turn and shake the bed, to distract my meditation. I can do nothing for hours and she won't make a sound, but as soon as I intentionally begin to focus on meditation, it's like she can read my mind and starts making noise. Sometimes I think it's mara. I read a sutta of mara making a whole village dislike a group of monks.

Also, when I think hard on a dhamma topic, and right when I'm about to get an ah-ha insight moment, my spouse always says something to me which distracts me. It's always the worst timing. I really sometimes think it's mara.

[bkmudita]

Ma- is death. Mara is whatever the force that leads to death. we can also say this samsaric world is a manifestation of Mara. Some history background. Once there are two clans of gods. One clan is the dragon clan, and people associated with this clan call their gods devas. They prey to these devas and their associates, such as the snakes(Khandha Paritta), peacocks(Mora Paritta), etc. Their enemy, the eagle clan calls these devas daemons. the people associated with the dragon clan call the eagle clan gods asuras(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Asuras). As time went by, people mixed together and knowledge lost. People started to mix their gods as well, all sorts of concepts and classifications appear. interesting and confusing.

[circuit]

I like to meditate in the lions posture before going to sleep. I swear every single time I start meditating my spouse, who is already asleep, will start to make noise or turn and shake the bed, to distract my meditation. I can do nothing for hours and she won't make a sound, but as soon as I intentionally begin to focus on meditation, it's like she can read my mind and starts making noise. Sometimes I think it's mara. I read a sutta of mara making a whole village dislike a group of monks.

Also, when I think hard on a dhamma topic, and right when I'm about to get an ah-ha insight moment, my spouse always says something to me which distracts me. It's always the worst timing. I really sometimes think it's mara.

no, she is not mara

no, it is not mara

it is samsaravattadukkha

[frank k]

Māra = the deva referenced in the OP.
mara = death.
Two different words and meanings.

Ma- is death. Mara is whatever the force that leads to death. we can also say this samsaric world is a manifestation of Mara. Some history background. Once there are two clans of gods. One clan is the dragon clan, and people associated with this clan call their gods devas. They prey to these devas and their associates, such as the snakes(Khandha Paritta), peacocks(Mora Paritta), etc. Their enemy, the eagle clan calls these devas daemons. the people associated with the dragon clan call the eagle clan gods asuras(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Asuras). As time went by, people mixed together and knowledge lost. People started to mix their gods as well, all sorts of concepts and classifications appear. interesting and confusing.

[frank k]

How about stop making excuses and blaming māra for everything and find workarounds and solutions?
If you're serious about your practice, sleep in a different room, find quiet places to meditate.
And work on meditating under any condition, quiet, noisy, distracted.
It can be done. All that's required is grit, perseverance, determination, and a desire to stop making excuses and playing victim.

...
I like to meditate in the lions posture before going to sleep. I swear every single time I start meditating my spouse, who is already asleep, will start to make noise or turn and shake the bed, to distract my meditation. I can do nothing for hours and she won't make a sound, but as soon as I intentionally begin to focus on meditation, it's like she can read my mind and starts making noise. Sometimes I think it's mara. I read a sutta of mara making a whole village dislike a group of monks.

Also, when I think hard on a dhamma topic, and right when I'm about to get an ah-ha insight moment, my spouse always says something to me which distracts me. It's always the worst timing. I really sometimes think it's mara.

[un8-]

How about stop making excuses and blaming māra for everything and find workarounds and solutions?
If you're serious about your practice, sleep in a different room, find quiet places to meditate.
And work on meditating under any condition, quiet, noisy, distracted.
It can be done. All that's required is grit, perseverance, determination, and a desire to stop making excuses and playing victim.

...
I like to meditate in the lions posture before going to sleep. I swear every single time I start meditating my spouse, who is already asleep, will start to make noise or turn and shake the bed, to distract my meditation. I can do nothing for hours and she won't make a sound, but as soon as I intentionally begin to focus on meditation, it's like she can read my mind and starts making noise. Sometimes I think it's mara. I read a sutta of mara making a whole village dislike a group of monks.

Also, when I think hard on a dhamma topic, and right when I'm about to get an ah-ha insight moment, my spouse always says something to me which distracts me. It's always the worst timing. I really sometimes think it's mara.

How about not emotionally misconstruing what I said. All I said was that it happens so much, it seems strange and not coincidental. Nowhere did I say that I gave up or stopped meditating or that "I'm blaming mara for everything"

[confusedlayman]

Mara will come only if u are near attaining arhantship..ogher times he wont come i think

[Dharmasherab]

Thank you dear Venerable Dhammanando for the answers.

[Alino]

Here some very good vidéos :

[TRobinson465]

They're actually a bit of both. The heavenly side of the Māras is that they sincerely wish for beings to perform deeds of merit of the kind whose vipāka will manifest in the sense-sphere. Dāna and sīla, for example. So long as you're doing just this and nothing more, Māra won't mess with you. Indeed there are even accounts of Māra positively encouraging such activities.

What vexes Māra and triggers him to act demonically is when someone sees the danger and drawback in sense-pleasures and starts taking steps that will lead him out of the Kāmaloka. In other words, Māra doesn't like people undertaking samatha-bhāvanā, for if they're successful in attaining rūpa and arūpa states, then they'll come to view sense-pleasures as coarse. And he certainly doesn't like people undertaking vipassanā-bhāvanā, for if they're successful in attaining supramundane states, then even rūpa and arūpa states will be viewed by them as coarse, which will place them completely outside of Māra's range. And so it's in order to proactively obstruct any such success that Māra and his host may start to play rough with people.

To give another political simile, Māra might be compared to a well-intentioned but misguided communist dictator who is reluctant to allow his citizens to travel abroad. His reluctance stems from the knowledge that once citizens see how much more pleasant life is in capitalist countries, they're sure to become disillusioned with the communist project.

This is an interesting explanation bhante. Do you have any accounts of times mara has encouraged people to do good deeds? I'd be interested in reading them.

Also, how do you think this explanation fits in with maras actions with bakka brahma? As well as the jataka tale where mara tries to stop somebody from offering food to a pacceka Buddha?

[robertk]

Devaputtasaṃyutta Connected Discourses with
Young Devas 30
370 “Those engaged in austerity and scrupulousness,
Those protecting their solitude,
And those who have settled on form,
Delighting in the world of devas: <155>
Indeed, these mortals instruct rightly
In regard to the other world.”


Then the Blessed One, having understood, “This is Māra the Evil One,”
replied to Māra the Evil One in verse:
371 “Whatever forms exist here or beyond,
And those of luminous beauty in the sky,
All these, indeed, you praise, Namuci,
Like bait thrown out for catching fish Connected Discourses with
Young Devas 30
370 “Those engaged in austerity and scrupulousness,
Those protecting their solitude,
And those who have settled on form,
Delighting in the world of devas: <155>
Indeed, these mortals instruct rightly
In regard to the other world.”


Then the Blessed One, having understood, “This is Māra the Evil One,”
replied to Māra the Evil One in verse:
371 “Whatever forms exist here or beyond,
And those of luminous beauty in the sky,
All these, indeed, you praise, Namuci,
Like bait thrown out for catching fish

[Ontheway]

Here some very good vidéos :

Bhante Punnadhammo's Dhamma talks are really helpful.