Pls explain how one differentiate vedana from bodily vinnana such as a sensation of itchy or coldness sense in body . Is it vedana or vinnana ?
Vedana and (physical) body vinnana
Vedana and (physical) body vinnana
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Re: Vedana and (physical) body vinnana
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html"'Consciousness, consciousness': Thus is it said. To what extent, friend, is it said to be 'consciousness'?"
"'It cognizes, it cognizes': Thus, friend, it is said to be 'consciousness.' And what does it cognize? It cognizes 'pleasant.' It cognizes 'painful.' It cognizes 'neither painful nor pleasant.' 'It cognizes, it cognizes': Thus it is said to be 'consciousness.'"
So the ability to differentiate seems like the Vinnana.
When you have felt something, by Vinnana you cognise whether it is pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Re: Vedana and (physical) body vinnana
The ability to differentiate seems like the Sanna (Perception).
So the ability to cognize seems like the Vinnana.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
Re: Vedana and (physical) body vinnana
a sensation of itchy or coldness sensed in body is not bodily vinnana. It is an object (ayatana) of bodily vinnana.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
Re: Vedana and (physical) body vinnana
Perhaps you are correct, as it is termed eye Vinnana etc.
So when you can differentiate with a faculty it is termed Vinnana.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Re: Vedana and (physical) body vinnana
Sorry I cannot understand the above.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
Re: Vedana and (physical) body vinnana
I think the word Vinnana is used in a different context.
-Sota Vinnana etc refers to the consciousness of six faculties.
-Vienna in Dependent Origination refers to re-birth consciousness.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Re: Vedana and (physical) body vinnana
Physical sensation: pleasant, pain and boring are called vedanā.
The body receives the sense contacts: called viññāṇa
Perception and memmories: called saññā
Thinking, thoughts and emotions: called saṅkhāra
Your itching sensation is vedanā. Your body receives the fingers contact where the itch happens is called viññāṇa.
My opinion
Jons
Re: Vedana and (physical) body vinnana
Sorry but the Suttas say vinanna in Dependent Origination refers to six faculties.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
Re: Vedana and (physical) body vinnana
MN 18 is a good sutta to see the hierarchy of where vinnana and vedana fit in to experience.
https://lucid24.org/mn/mn018/index.html
for the eye, it looks like this:
Cakkhu + rūpe + viññāṇaṃ → phasso → vedeti (vedanā) → sañjānāti → vitakketi → papañceti
eye + forms + consciousness → contact → feel → perceive → think → proliferate
For the body, it would be:
kaya/body + phottabbha/tactile sensations + vinnana -> contact (meeting of the first 3 elements) -> vedana (3 types pleasant, pain, neutral) -> sanna/perceptions -> vitakka/thinking
So the external sense stimuli being intrinsically cold or itchy causing, is part of phottabbha.
vinnana/consciousness is the internal experience of the raw sensory data that appears to the kaya body of that phottabbha.
contact is the meeting of the above 3 elements: internal experience, external sense stimuli, consciousness of it.
So for example, the Buddha in animitta samadhi can shut off some bodily pains, by means of phassa/contact partially shut off for parts of the body, or perhaps vinnana does not even register for those parts.
Similarly, going to the dentist, getting anaesthesia, nerves getting disbled for your mouth prevents the phassa/contact of pain vedana occurring.
So getting back to your original question, "cold sensation or itchy sensation of the body", bodily vinnana/consciousness has to occur first, as the raw sensory data that one internally comes into contact with.
vedana really wouldn't apply, since you didn't specify whether the cold or itchiness was pleasant, painful, or neutral.
sanna/perception is really where your mind first classifies the experience into the more nuanced aspects such as cold, itchy, etc.
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
www.audtip.org/audtip: Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
Re: Vedana and (physical) body vinnana
Yes , i refers to raw sensation of coldness or itchyness which is body vinnana . Thanksfrank k wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:20 pmMN 18 is a good sutta to see the hierarchy of where vinnana and vedana fit in to experience.
https://lucid24.org/mn/mn018/index.html
for the eye, it looks like this:
Cakkhu + rūpe + viññāṇaṃ → phasso → vedeti (vedanā) → sañjānāti → vitakketi → papañceti
eye + forms + consciousness → contact → feel → perceive → think → proliferate
For the body, it would be:
kaya/body + phottabbha/tactile sensations + vinnana -> contact (meeting of the first 3 elements) -> vedana (3 types pleasant, pain, neutral) -> sanna/perceptions -> vitakka/thinking
So the external sense stimuli being intrinsically cold or itchy causing, is part of phottabbha.
vinnana/consciousness is the internal experience of the raw sensory data that appears to the kaya body of that phottabbha.
contact is the meeting of the above 3 elements: internal experience, external sense stimuli, consciousness of it.
So for example, the Buddha in animitta samadhi can shut off some bodily pains, by means of phassa/contact partially shut off for parts of the body, or perhaps vinnana does not even register for those parts.
Similarly, going to the dentist, getting anaesthesia, nerves getting disbled for your mouth prevents the phassa/contact of pain vedana occurring.
So getting back to your original question, "cold sensation or itchy sensation of the body", bodily vinnana/consciousness has to occur first, as the raw sensory data that one internally comes into contact with.
vedana really wouldn't apply, since you didn't specify whether the cold or itchiness was pleasant, painful, or neutral.
sanna/perception is really where your mind first classifies the experience into the more nuanced aspects such as cold, itchy, etc.
No bashing No gossiping