Vedana and (physical) body vinnana

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asahi
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Vedana and (physical) body vinnana

Post by asahi »

Pls explain how one differentiate vedana from bodily vinnana such as a sensation of itchy or coldness sense in body . Is it vedana or vinnana ?

:thanks:
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SarathW
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Re: Vedana and (physical) body vinnana

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"'Consciousness, consciousness': Thus is it said. To what extent, friend, is it said to be 'consciousness'?"

"'It cognizes, it cognizes': Thus, friend, it is said to be 'consciousness.' And what does it cognize? It cognizes 'pleasant.' It cognizes 'painful.' It cognizes 'neither painful nor pleasant.' 'It cognizes, it cognizes': Thus it is said to be 'consciousness.'"
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

So the ability to differentiate seems like the Vinnana.
When you have felt something, by Vinnana you cognise whether it is pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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DooDoot
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Re: Vedana and (physical) body vinnana

Post by DooDoot »

SarathW wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:07 am So the ability to differentiate seems like the Vinnana.
The ability to differentiate seems like the Sanna (Perception).

So the ability to cognize seems like the Vinnana.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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DooDoot
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Re: Vedana and (physical) body vinnana

Post by DooDoot »

asahi wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:53 am Pls explain how one differentiate vedana from bodily vinnana such as a sensation of itchy or coldness sense in body . Is it vedana or vinnana ?
a sensation of itchy or coldness sensed in body is not bodily vinnana. It is an object (ayatana) of bodily vinnana.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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SarathW
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Re: Vedana and (physical) body vinnana

Post by SarathW »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:11 am
SarathW wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:07 am So the ability to differentiate seems like the Vinnana.
The ability to differentiate seems like the Sanna (Perception).

So the ability to cognize seems like the Vinnana.
Perhaps you are correct, as it is termed eye Vinnana etc.
So when you can differentiate with a faculty it is termed Vinnana.
:shrug:
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DooDoot
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Re: Vedana and (physical) body vinnana

Post by DooDoot »

SarathW wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:34 am Perhaps you are correct, as it is termed eye Vinnana etc.
So when you can differentiate with a faculty it is termed Vinnana.
:shrug:
Sorry I cannot understand the above.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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SarathW
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Re: Vedana and (physical) body vinnana

Post by SarathW »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:52 am
SarathW wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:34 am Perhaps you are correct, as it is termed eye Vinnana etc.
So when you can differentiate with a faculty it is termed Vinnana.
:shrug:
Sorry I cannot understand the above.
I think the word Vinnana is used in a different context.
-Sota Vinnana etc refers to the consciousness of six faculties.
-Vienna in Dependent Origination refers to re-birth consciousness.
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jons
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Re: Vedana and (physical) body vinnana

Post by jons »

asahi wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:53 am Pls explain how one differentiate vedana from bodily vinnana such as a sensation of itchy or coldness sense in body . Is it vedana or vinnana ?

:thanks:
Physical sensation: pleasant, pain and boring are called vedanā.

The body receives the sense contacts: called viññāṇa

Perception and memmories: called saññā

Thinking, thoughts and emotions: called saṅkhāra

Your itching sensation is vedanā. Your body receives the fingers contact where the itch happens is called viññāṇa.

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DooDoot
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Re: Vedana and (physical) body vinnana

Post by DooDoot »

SarathW wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:04 am I think the word Vinnana is used in a different context.
-Sota Vinnana etc refers to the consciousness of six faculties.
-Vienna in Dependent Origination refers to re-birth consciousness.
Sorry but the Suttas say vinanna in Dependent Origination refers to six faculties.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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frank k
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Re: Vedana and (physical) body vinnana

Post by frank k »

asahi wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:53 am Pls explain how one differentiate vedana from bodily vinnana such as a sensation of itchy or coldness sense in body . Is it vedana or vinnana ?

:thanks:
MN 18 is a good sutta to see the hierarchy of where vinnana and vedana fit in to experience.
https://lucid24.org/mn/mn018/index.html

for the eye, it looks like this:
Cakkhu + rūpe + viññāṇaṃ → phasso → vedeti (vedanā) → sañjānāti → vitakketi → papañceti
eye + forms + consciousness → contact → feel → perceive → think → proliferate


For the body, it would be:
kaya/body + phottabbha/tactile sensations + vinnana -> contact (meeting of the first 3 elements) -> vedana (3 types pleasant, pain, neutral) -> sanna/perceptions -> vitakka/thinking

So the external sense stimuli being intrinsically cold or itchy causing, is part of phottabbha.
vinnana/consciousness is the internal experience of the raw sensory data that appears to the kaya body of that phottabbha.
contact is the meeting of the above 3 elements: internal experience, external sense stimuli, consciousness of it.

So for example, the Buddha in animitta samadhi can shut off some bodily pains, by means of phassa/contact partially shut off for parts of the body, or perhaps vinnana does not even register for those parts.
Similarly, going to the dentist, getting anaesthesia, nerves getting disbled for your mouth prevents the phassa/contact of pain vedana occurring.

So getting back to your original question, "cold sensation or itchy sensation of the body", bodily vinnana/consciousness has to occur first, as the raw sensory data that one internally comes into contact with.
vedana really wouldn't apply, since you didn't specify whether the cold or itchiness was pleasant, painful, or neutral.
sanna/perception is really where your mind first classifies the experience into the more nuanced aspects such as cold, itchy, etc.
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asahi
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Re: Vedana and (physical) body vinnana

Post by asahi »

frank k wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:20 pm
asahi wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:53 am Pls explain how one differentiate vedana from bodily vinnana such as a sensation of itchy or coldness sense in body . Is it vedana or vinnana ?

:thanks:
MN 18 is a good sutta to see the hierarchy of where vinnana and vedana fit in to experience.
https://lucid24.org/mn/mn018/index.html

for the eye, it looks like this:
Cakkhu + rūpe + viññāṇaṃ → phasso → vedeti (vedanā) → sañjānāti → vitakketi → papañceti
eye + forms + consciousness → contact → feel → perceive → think → proliferate


For the body, it would be:
kaya/body + phottabbha/tactile sensations + vinnana -> contact (meeting of the first 3 elements) -> vedana (3 types pleasant, pain, neutral) -> sanna/perceptions -> vitakka/thinking

So the external sense stimuli being intrinsically cold or itchy causing, is part of phottabbha.
vinnana/consciousness is the internal experience of the raw sensory data that appears to the kaya body of that phottabbha.
contact is the meeting of the above 3 elements: internal experience, external sense stimuli, consciousness of it.

So for example, the Buddha in animitta samadhi can shut off some bodily pains, by means of phassa/contact partially shut off for parts of the body, or perhaps vinnana does not even register for those parts.
Similarly, going to the dentist, getting anaesthesia, nerves getting disbled for your mouth prevents the phassa/contact of pain vedana occurring.

So getting back to your original question, "cold sensation or itchy sensation of the body", bodily vinnana/consciousness has to occur first, as the raw sensory data that one internally comes into contact with.
vedana really wouldn't apply, since you didn't specify whether the cold or itchiness was pleasant, painful, or neutral.
sanna/perception is really where your mind first classifies the experience into the more nuanced aspects such as cold, itchy, etc.
Yes , i refers to raw sensation of coldness or itchyness which is body vinnana . Thanks
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