Do You recommend Goenka ten days Vipassana retreat?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Do You recommend Goenka ten days Vipassana retreat?

1) Yes I have attended the retreat and highly recommend it
5
18%
2) Yes I have attended the retreat and do not recommend it.
5
18%
3) No I have not attended the retreat and recommend it as I have seen his videos and read books
2
7%
4) No I have not attended the retreat and have not recommended it as I do not like his videos and books
4
14%
5) No I have not attended the retreats and do not like him because he is an Indaian
1
4%
6) No I have not attended the retreat and do not like him because he is a layman
0
No votes
7) No I have not attended the retreat but recommend it as I have heard others talk good about it.
4
14%
8) No I have not attended the retreat but not recommend as I have heard others talk bad about it
7
25%
 
Total votes: 28

Bundokji
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Re: Do You recommend Goenka ten days Vipassana retreat?

Post by Bundokji »

Tennok wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:35 am It does generates some extra focus. Perhaps it is similiar to rock concerts, or rave parties - some kind of grop consciousness emerges? Some mental osmosis happends? Btw, I ve seen at least one theravada forrest monastery, in which monks do group meditation for large part of the day ( in front of a skeleton :smile: ) , instead of meditating aloe in their kutis. So it's not a lay man's hobby only...

Even the self mortification aspect has it's purposes, in my book. That's why I like orgnized meditations, with a set up time. You are dealing with your monkey mind's stron urges to get up, scratch your butt, run away...And you can't follow those impulses , couse your fellow soldiers are watching. It gets really interesting, when this monkey mind suddenly gives up and vanishes.

For some reason the best - or deepest - stuff that I stumbled upon in meditation, happend during the retreats. I wish it was other way around, couse I can't do them nowdays. :cry:

Being set in the meditative einvorment, with a good teacher, is priceless. I haven't done Goenka, btw. Not a fan of his method.
what you described in the Theravada forest monastery sounds like a daily routine for resident monks. Its not like they are leaving home to meditate together.

I thought for lay people, breaking the routine would be seeking solitude rather than company. Don't people have enough being around each other in schools, universities, work, families and social gatherings? Some aspects of what you described in terms of self control when others are watching you is akin to what the "civilized" people are trained to do since young age. For example, we control our bowls movement and defecate/urinate in the toilet when we have long business meeting. When you see a sexy woman, you do not go and touch her inappropriately because others are watching you, and because there are consequences. In other words, being civilized generates some kind of self awareness and self control based on the notion of being watched by others. Now, for a change, letting go of our addiction to being surrounded by others might bring unexpected benefits.

Usually, in social gatherings, a technique or a method has a unifying impact, as with people go clubbing as you mentioned. Let us get enlightened together ...friends :group:
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
SarathW
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Re: Do You recommend Goenka ten days Vipassana retreat?

Post by SarathW »

Bundokji wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:33 am I think discussing the teachings with other practitioners is beneficial, in the sense that each has a perspective, and language being a medium between humans, its relevant for exchanging ideas. The company of the wise is indeed valuable.

But meditation!!! :rolleye: :shock: :shrug:

Why do people go and meditate together eludes me.
Perhaps you can find your future partner there!
:tongue:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
SarathW
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Re: Do You recommend Goenka ten days Vipassana retreat?

Post by SarathW »

DNS wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:51 pm The number 5 option appears silly; why would it matter what ethnicity / race he is?

I notice there are about 3 yes options and 5 no options. This might mislead some with the results as those who do not recommend would have their voting spread out among 5 options. Also, allowing multiple choices can skew the results since some will only pick one choice and some will pick 5 options.
Agree. This survey is "'No" biased.
I just throw the nationality question as a wild card, but got one vote! So it is not that silly question.
I surprised about the response to no 8 as how people just rely on hear say information.
Perhaps evaluate each question in its own merits.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Bundokji
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Re: Do You recommend Goenka ten days Vipassana retreat?

Post by Bundokji »

SarathW wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:19 am Perhaps you can find your future partner there!
:tongue:
:guns:

But seriously, one of the justifications one encounters in relation to group retreats is the energy field. I am not sure if this is real or not, but it seems to be more of a warning to avoid people.
Then a third time, when the night was far advanced, at the end of the last watch, as dawn was approaching and the face of the night was beaming, Ven. Ānanda got up from his seat, arranged his robe over one shoulder, stood facing the Blessed One, paying homage with his hands placed palm-to-palm over his heart, and said to him, "Lord, the night is far advanced. The last watch has ended. Dawn is approaching and the face of the night is beaming. The community of monks has been sitting here long. May the Blessed One recite the Pāṭimokkha to the community of monks."

"Ānanda, the gathering isn't pure."

Then the thought occurred to Ven. Mahā Moggallāna: "In reference to which individual did the Blessed One just now say, 'Ānanda, the gathering isn't pure'?" So he directed his mind, encompassing with his awareness the awareness of the entire community of monks. He saw that individual — unprincipled, evil, unclean and suspect in his undertakings, hidden in his actions, not a contemplative though claiming to be one, not leading the holy life though claiming to do so, inwardly rotten, oozing with desire, filthy by nature — sitting in the midst of the community of monks. On seeing him, he got up, went over to that individual, and on reaching him said, "Get up, friend. You have been seen by the Blessed One. You have no affiliation with the community of monks." Then the individual remained silent. A second time... A third time, Ven. Mahā Moggallāna said, "Get up, friend. You have been seen by the Blessed One. You have no affiliation with the community of monks." And for a third time the individual remained silent.

Then Ven. Mahā Moggallāna, grabbing that individual by the arm, having expelled him through the outside door of the porch and locking the bolt, approached the Blessed One and on arrival said, "I have expelled that individual, lord. The gathering is now pure. Let the Blessed One recite the Pāṭimokkha to the community of monks."
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
jons
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Re: Do You recommend Goenka ten days Vipassana retreat?

Post by jons »

Bundokji wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:33 am I think discussing the teachings with other practitioners is beneficial, in the sense that each has a perspective, and language being a medium between humans, its relevant for exchanging ideas. The company of the wise is indeed valuable.
You are absolutely right about the teachings. Each individual interpretation of vocabularies of ancient languages that passed through time and cultures. Each interpretation carries different meanings.
For example one sutta, translate from Pali to Khmer then to English, the same sutta translate from Pali to Sinhalese then to English, and the same sutta translate from Pali to Burmese then to English, the end results are totally different meanings. That is the reality of interpretation.

Likewise, in the stock trading world, there is a similar result. The interpretation of the Japanese Candle Charts. The Candlestick charts have graphic representation, yet one person interpretation is totally different from another. For instance, the different of steve Nison's interpretations are different from Steve Bigalow.

Imagine the abstract of ancient vocabularies interpreted to the modern languages' vocabularies, the results can be very confusing.

Exhange of ideas is very important, indeed.

My opinion
Jons
Bundokji
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Re: Do You recommend Goenka ten days Vipassana retreat?

Post by Bundokji »

jons wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 5:50 pm Imagine the abstract of ancient vocabularies interpreted to the modern languages' vocabularies, the results can be very confusing.
The point i was trying to make is relevant to mediums (the six senses) and its relationship to range where physicality is a reference. Knowledge through the six sense media is justified through range, presence and absence. For example, to know a bhikkhu's input in relation to a particular issue, presence has to be within the range of communicable knowledge whether its his voice or written material. Same thing can be said about the other senses, be it smell, touch or taste as they are experienced and justified through range. This type of justification is based on literal interpretations of terms such as solitude.

If meditation is mainly sitting in silence, then physical presence within the range of others is difficult to fathom. Using the awareness/volition of others as a tool of control is redundant when one has awareness and volition. In terms of going against the grain of human tendencies and the biases of our age especially for lay people, then solitude seem to go better against the grain that group meditation. Opposite logic applies to monastics where solitude and silence are the main activities hence they are required to remain within the range of a village to maintain minimal human interaction.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
sunnat
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Post by sunnat »

I am fortunate to:

not have had any preconceptions about what a Goenka led meditation retreat will be like, except that it would be a free, accommodation and food supplied, 10 day rest from life.

Within a day or two I began to understand and after a few days I realised I had finally found a way to get free from the miseries that plagued me.

So, I encourage all who contemplate doing a course to read the instruction manual carefully, answer the application forms honestly and go with an open mind. Before the start of the course here will be numerous exhortations to consider carefully whether you can apply yourself honestly to the rigours of the course discipline. Like james correctly pointed out, it is a boot-camp of anapana and vipassana. What you do with what you learn is entirely up to you. That's how it should be. Me, I've stayed close to the Ledi Sayadaw lineage but find good things to learn in the Thai Forest Tradition and various teachers, while there is deep gratitude for having had the opportunity to sit that first course.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Do You recommend Goenka ten days Vipassana retreat?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
SarathW wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:22 am I just throw the nationality question as a wild card, but got one vote! So it is not that silly question.
Or it's such a silly question that someone is trolling you. 8-)

After all, the Buddha was Indian, right?

:buddha2:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
SarathW
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Re: Do You recommend Goenka ten days Vipassana retreat?

Post by SarathW »

retrofuturist wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:44 am Greetings,
SarathW wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:22 am I just throw the nationality question as a wild card, but got one vote! So it is not that silly question.
Or it's such a silly question that someone is trolling you. 8-)

After all, the Buddha was Indian, right?

:buddha2:

Metta,
Paul. :)
Agree but what about the question if he is a lay person.
Subconsciously, we reject people or ideas due to discrimination. (race, color, cast, sex etc)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Tennok
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Re: Do You recommend Goenka ten days Vipassana retreat?

Post by Tennok »

In other words, being civilized generates some kind of self awareness and self control based on the notion of being watched by others. Now, for a change, letting go of our addiction to being surrounded by others might bring unexpected benefits.
Aah, the old dillema. Is buddhist practice about being spontanious or being extra restrained? I used to think it's about being "free", when I was younger. But now I think opposite. There is freedom, of course, but it's a freedom from the impulses...and kilesa. Self awarness and self control is necessary, it's called sati - sampajanna and sila.

Being spontanious, as a core of practice is a myth from the Western Buddhism. :smile: It attracts people, I guess. And our whole culture is about "accepting who you are" ,"follow your true desire" and other permissive ideas like that. Althought great ajahns like Ajahn Chah were famous for being spontanious, it might be becuse of their perfectly realized anatta and lack of neurotic "self pumping" ...And I 've actually read somewhere, that Chah acted like that purposedly, in order to communicate with ex hippies. :smile:

Following your impulses without any judgement, is not what Buddha had recommended.

Of course, if being restrained comes only from being watched by the others, it's not enough. I often went back to my old habits quickly, when the retreat ended. As about the need of change...is it the point of retreat? Having a nice holiday?

For me it was about extra chance to have some progress and breakthrough in my practice, thanks to teacher and supportive einvorment. I did some alone retreats in the mountains and it was more difficult...you need a teacher to spike the baloon of your own illusions sometimes. Or a mirror. :jawdrop:
Bundokji
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Re: Do You recommend Goenka ten days Vipassana retreat?

Post by Bundokji »

Tennok wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 2:09 am Aah, the old dillema. Is buddhist practice about being spontanious or being extra restrained? I used to think it's about being "free", when I was younger. But now I think opposite. There is freedom, of course, but it's a freedom from the impulses...and kilesa. Self awarness and self control is necessary, it's called sati - sampajanna and sila.
Its not only a dilemma, but seems to be a false one. For example, if you enjoy the company of people and you go to group meditation to maintain this company, then this is not restraint. Higher degrees of self control is usually commendable, but there are various (if not endless) forms of self control which have been encouraged and habituated by virtue of living with others. As you know, people can be very demanding and get easily irritated when things do not go their ways, so being self-conscious and engaging in self control is something people do all the time whether they know it or not.
Being spontanious, as a core of practice is a myth from the Western Buddhism. :smile: It attracts people, I guess. And our whole culture is about "accepting who you are" ,"follow your true desire" and other permissive ideas like that. Althought great ajahns like Ajahn Chah were famous for being spontanious, it might be becuse of their perfectly realized anatta and lack of neurotic "self pumping" ...And I 've actually read somewhere, that Chah acted like that purposedly, in order to communicate with ex hippies. :smile:
I have no quarrels with your personal reflections about western Buddhists and/or Ajahn Chah, but planned events raise questions about the underlying intentions and claimed benefits as it supposed to be breaking an underlying norm. In the context of this discussion, mass-produced group retreats are planned in advanced and individuals from different locations take the burden of traveling and attending, hence comparisons with solitude, which is encouraged by the wise and goes against the grain of lay life could be the basis of investigation. It can be used to reflect on what meditation is, and what people are trying to achieve by gathering and following mass-produced instructions. Through the lens of spontaneity vs planning, having the retreat organizers giving instructions might give participants the feeling that they are not using their own will/volition (hence being in a way ...spontaneous). The organizers can decide on behalf of the people, which can be appealing to hippies, who appreciate mere chance and hate making decisions :smile:
Following your impulses without any judgement, is not what Buddha had recommended.
I agree, but unless we know why group meditation and mass-produced retreat are not a theme for following one's impulses,then we cannot be sure that we are following the Buddha's recommendations simply by virtue of attending a mass-produced retreat.
Of course, if being restrained comes only from being watched by the others, it's not enough. I often went back to my old habits quickly, when the retreat ended. As about the need of change...is it the point of retreat? Having a nice holiday?
It could be. It could also be an easier way of keeping a record of how many meditation retreats one has attended. I used to travel to different places to somehow claim it/add it to my CV. To tell myself and others that i am an adventurous traveler :tongue:
For me it was about extra chance to have some progress and breakthrough in my practice, thanks to teacher and supportive einvorment. I did some alone retreats in the mountains and it was more difficult...you need a teacher to spike the baloon of your own illusions sometimes. Or a mirror.
The possible need for teachers is not disputed which is relevant to the issue of medium and range i raised in earlier posts. This can be done simply online or through visiting a monastery, not necessarily through group retreats.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
TRobinson465
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Re: Do You recommend Goenka ten days Vipassana retreat?

Post by TRobinson465 »

Everyone I've talked to who has been to one has reported a positive experience. Although i have heard (not from anyone i know personally but from news and through people who know people) of some negative experiences there. The negative is usually that it is too rigorous or doesn't prepare new meditators well enough which can lead to people having bad experiences or even going insane from the retreats (although i imagine this is pretty rare).

They are supposed to teach vipassana meditation, which I read is supposed to only be done after a stable samatha practice or at least done by people who have developed concentration abilities already if you're going to just ignore or gloss over the samatha practice so its possible its related to that. From what ive heard they teach in an ordered fashion (something like 3 days of breathing meditation then moving on to contemplating the body or something). Based on the structure i think this is just asking for problems since its not like everybody needs exactly 3 days to settle their mind and many people will need much longer depending on where they are starting from.

Somebody told me that a problem with their technique is since they focus on contemplating sensations of the body or something, people who have problems with thoughts racing in their mind become bewildered and contemplate their thoughts upon thoughts and can develop mental issues since they werent given enough time to practice settling their mind. Based on the negative reports I've heard I think this person is probably right in his analysis.

This negative stuff is just hearsay though. Literally everyone I know personally who has been to Goenka retreats has given me positive feedback, and one person who attends the temple i do even credits Goenka with sparking her interest in Buddhism in the first place. My recommendation is just try it if you want to but be mindful of the negative reports. If you are at the retreat and start feeling mentally overwhelmed or that your losing your mind or control of your thoughts or something, definitely consider leaving early rather than forcing yourself to stay.

Plus from my experience reports you hear on the internet (especially negative ones which internet trolls feed on) about places can be starkly different and even completely wrong and twisted from what you actually see and experience if you put in the work to come and see for yourself. People who learn everything from the Internet generally have different viewpoints than people who go and see directly.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
BrokenBones
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Re: Do You recommend Goenka ten days Vipassana retreat?

Post by BrokenBones »

Some of the problems are...

1. A large majority of people within the groups have very little knowledge of the Buddha's teachings, some of the AT's are mind numbingly ignorant.

2. The teaching seems to want to stand alone and apart from the majority of the Buddha's teachings.

3. A very strange fixation on 'lineage' and the fact that theirs is the only true teaching that has been handed down in direct line from the Buddha.

4. A refusal to interact with any Buddhist group.

5. Requirement to commit to their practice and only their practice... if you're a naughty boy and try a different practice for a week (maybe with someone like Bhante G)... you're back to being a beginner and have to start scaling the heights from scratch.

6. There is obviously a hierarchy but this hierarchy is kept hidden and no one can ever be held responsible (even when leading family members are dealing drugs).

7. The practice and 'insights' are not to be found in the suttas... so whatever people experience (and experience they do) is pure Burmese vipassana a la Goenka... the meditation 'works' but the destination doesn't appear to be what the Buddha taught. A more honest retreat would be to go to a Chakra retreat where they are at least honest about what is being taught. A clever... almost cultish aspect is that if you find fault with the teaching or heaven forbid, actually leave a course... you are mentally weak and not spiritually mature... such sly techniques are not worthy of any spiritual tradition let alone a Buddhist one.

People wondered what the motives were, the retreats are free and nobody has to go on them. I think the question was answered with this...

https://www.globalpagoda.org/

Costs run into the tens of millions 💵

The ego has landed... but hey... it's free 😂
SarathW
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Re: Do You recommend Goenka ten days Vipassana retreat?

Post by SarathW »

The bottom line is it is free.
So it does not cost you anything to find out it yourself with your own experience.
As I said before, it is inevitable some rogues will take over this wonderful initiative.
It can happen even to an internet Dhamma discussion forum.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
BrokenBones
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Re: Do You recommend Goenka ten days Vipassana retreat?

Post by BrokenBones »

SarathW wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 12:03 am The bottom line is it is free.
So it does not cost you anything to find out it yourself with your own experience.
As I said before, it is inevitable some rogues will take over this wonderful initiative.
It can happen even to an internet Dhamma discussion forum.
If your bottom line is it's free... any of the major religions would probably suit your needs... but don't expect much sense... even in Dhamma discussion forums some posters make thousands of posts with little thought behind them... but hey... it's all free!
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