Is fear of wrongdoing a good or a bad thing?

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D1W1
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Is fear of wrongdoing a good or a bad thing?

Post by D1W1 »

Hi all,

We're encouraged to fight fear of wrongdoing, not letting it take over ourselves, just do it! But in Buddhism fear of wrongdoing is a good thing. Can you be a good Buddhist and not letting fear take over at the same time?
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DooDoot
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Re: Is fear of wrongdoing a good or a bad thing?

Post by DooDoot »

Somewhere in scripture fear of wrong doing (ottappa) is called one of the "five gates" to Dhamma, the others being moral shame, mindfulness, clear-comprehension & samadhi.

Put another way, there are only five things we have to fear. We don't even have to fear ghosts. Those five things are:

1. killing others

2. stealing

3. sexual misconduct

4. lying

5. drugs & alcohol

6. add gambling, borrowing money for dumb things, etc

Therefore what is there significant to fear? :shrug:

For those who have embraced "liberalism", it is generally the "sex" thing that they don't want to have to fear. :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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SarathW
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Re: Is fear of wrongdoing a good or a bad thing?

Post by SarathW »

Shamelessness of evil (ahirika) is lack of conscience, not as a mysterious inner voice, but as an abhorrence towards evil.
Fearlessness of evil (anottappa) is moral recklessness resulting from ignorance about the moral law.
Shame of evil (hiri) and fear of evil (ottappa) are the opposites of the second and third unwholesome mental factors, already discussed.
Actually, it is not the fear of wrongdoing, it is the shame of wrongdoing.
Perhaps the Abrahamic religion teaches this as fear. :shrug:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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DooDoot
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Re: Is fear of wrongdoing a good or a bad thing?

Post by DooDoot »

SarathW wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 9:04 am Actually, it is not the fear of wrongdoing, it is the shame of wrongdoing.
Perhaps the Abrahamic religion teaches this as fear. :shrug:
Wrong.
Definitions for ottappa
New Concise Pali English Dictionary
ottappa
neuter
shame, fear (of doing wrong); scrupulousness (in avoiding wrong-doing or blame)

https://suttacentral.net/define/ottappa
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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SDC
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Re: Is fear of wrongdoing a good or a bad thing?

Post by SDC »

SarathW wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 9:04 am
Shamelessness of evil (ahirika) is lack of conscience, not as a mysterious inner voice, but as an abhorrence towards evil.
Fearlessness of evil (anottappa) is moral recklessness resulting from ignorance about the moral law.
Shame of evil (hiri) and fear of evil (ottappa) are the opposites of the second and third unwholesome mental factors, already discussed.
Actually, it is not the fear of wrongdoing, it is the shame of wrongdoing.
Perhaps the Abrahamic religion teaches this as fear. :shrug:
Hiri (sense of shame) and ottappa (fear of wrongdoing) usually appear together in the suttas. So it’s both. There’s also “seeing danger in the slightest fault” with respect to keeping the training rules.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Is fear of wrongdoing a good or a bad thing?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

Vipassanā Dīpanī by Venerable Ledi Sayādaw.
Hiri means modesty, that is, hesitation in doing evil deeds through shame of being known to do them.
Ottappa means moral dread, that is, hesitation in doing evil deeds through fear of self-accusation, or accusation by others, or punishment in this world and in the realms of misery.
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Bundokji
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Re: Is fear of wrongdoing a good or a bad thing?

Post by Bundokji »

If we re-frame the question raised by the OP to be:

Dependent on what fear of wrongdoing would be a good thing? or
Dependent on what fear of wrongdoing would be a bad thing?

What would be the answer?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
SarathW
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Re: Is fear of wrongdoing a good or a bad thing?

Post by SarathW »

Bundokji wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 6:41 pm If we re-frame the question raised by the OP to be:

Dependent on what fear of wrongdoing would be a good thing? or
Dependent on what fear of wrongdoing would be a bad thing?

What would be the answer?
Wrongdoing is wrongdoing whether you are fear or not in my opinion.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
D1W1
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Re: Is fear of wrongdoing a good or a bad thing?

Post by D1W1 »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 8:59 am Somewhere in scripture fear of wrong doing (ottappa) is called one of the "five gates" to Dhamma, the others being moral shame, mindfulness, clear-comprehension & samadhi.

Put another way, there are only five things we have to fear. We don't even have to fear ghosts. Those five things are:

1. killing others

2. stealing

3. sexual misconduct

4. lying

5. drugs & alcohol

6. add gambling, borrowing money for dumb things, etc

Therefore what is there significant to fear? :shrug:

For those who have embraced "liberalism", it is generally the "sex" thing that they don't want to have to fear. :smile:
In other words, fear that contains conscience is good. But irrational fear is not.
D1W1
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Re: Is fear of wrongdoing a good or a bad thing?

Post by D1W1 »

Bundokji wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 6:41 pm If we re-frame the question raised by the OP to be:

Dependent on what fear of wrongdoing would be a good thing? or
Dependent on what fear of wrongdoing would be a bad thing?

What would be the answer?
I think I get the answer, if I may share that will be if you fear something irrational you have to fight it. But if it has reason, and your conscience say something to you you need to consider it and not to neglect it. For example, you know some food contain harmful ingredient you fear if you sell it to other people you will harm them therefore obtain bad karma. In this case you don't fight it and just do it! Because it is a good thing.
Bundokji
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Re: Is fear of wrongdoing a good or a bad thing?

Post by Bundokji »

D1W1 wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 3:29 am I think I get the answer, if I may share that will be if you fear something irrational you have to fight it. But if it has reason, and your conscience say something to you you need to consider it and not to neglect it. For example, you know some food contain harmful ingredient you fear if you sell it to other people you will harm them therefore obtain bad karma. In this case you don't fight it and just do it! Because it is a good thing.
I think fear of wrong doing and shame are ingrained in people since a young age. It is evident that people are already full of fear and shame (pending the trigger that reveals it) and when the Buddha comes along and praise these qualities, one cannot help but wonder if the Buddha came to liberate us or to burden us even further.

The main challenge is that the teachings are often presented in the abstract, and quoted with the deceptive simplicity of a definitive answer, when those who are in most need for it are very likely to have the wrong grasp of it (as per the teachings).

Between gratefulness to people who share the teachings as they are without distorting it, and those who potentially grasp it incorrectly, there is always a gap to be bridged. Had people known, with certainty, what is good and bad, then the question of fear and shame would be utterly meaningless. It is the uncertainty surrounding these concepts that keeps the question open.

In general, it seems to me that we have interest in maintaining this strange state of affairs. If fear of wrong doing and shame became completely unnecessary, people would be very unpredictable and living with them would become impossible. If people become overly guilt ridden and melancholy, living with them would become equally impossible. It seems that this uncertainty has a self correcting mechanism amongst social beings.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
annada
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Re: Is fear of wrongdoing a good or a bad thing?

Post by annada »

I see fear/shame of wrongdoing as a protection. Protection for yourself and protection for others.

"There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones, abandoning the taking of life, abstains from taking life. In doing so, he gives freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, freedom from oppression to limitless numbers of beings. In giving freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, freedom from oppression to limitless numbers of beings, he gains a share in limitless freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, and freedom from oppression."
...
"And further, abandoning taking what is not given [stealing], the disciple of the noble ones abstains from taking what is not given. In doing so, he gives freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, freedom from oppression to limitless numbers of beings. In giving freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, freedom from oppression to limitless numbers of beings, he gains a share in limitless freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, and freedom from oppression."
...
"And further, abandoning sexual misconduct, the disciple of the noble ones abstains from sexual misconduct. In doing so, he gives freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, freedom from oppression to limitless numbers of beings. In giving freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, freedom from oppression to limitless numbers of beings, he gains a share in limitless freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, and freedom from oppression."
...
"And further, abandoning the telling of lie, the disciple of the noble ones abstains from telling lies. In doing so, he gives freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, freedom from oppression to limitless numbers of beings. In giving freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, freedom from oppression to limitless numbers of beings, he gains a share in limitless freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, and freedom from oppression."
...
"And further, abandoning the use of intoxicants, the disciple of the noble ones abstains from taking intoxicants. In doing so, he gives freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, freedom from oppression to limitless numbers of beings. In giving freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, freedom from oppression to limitless numbers of beings, he gains a share in limitless freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, and freedom from oppression."
AN 8:39
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DooDoot
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Re: Is fear of wrongdoing a good or a bad thing?

Post by DooDoot »

D1W1 wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 3:26 am In other words, fear that contains conscience is good. But irrational fear is not.
Irrelevant. Ottappa is not about fear of ghosts or fear of Covid-19. It is about fear of the consequences of immorality. Regards :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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