Is Nibbana unnatural? unnatural?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
SarathW
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Is Nibbana unnatural? unnatural?

Post by SarathW »

Is Nibbana unnatural?
If Samsara creates itself without any effort, that has to be nature.
So Nibbana means that we are trying to stop nature.
Why Nibbana can not be natural?
What is your opinion on this?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Dan74
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Re: Is Nibbana unnatural? unnatural?

Post by Dan74 »

The Buddha described the Dhamma as going against the flow, the stream.

Samsara is kammically conditioned. Practice is to break this conditioning, interrupt the flow. What you call "nature" is what exactly? Giving in mindlessly to all our desires? Living like animals? But we are human. This won't bring happiness, even if we do.

There is a kind of a conflict or a contradiction between our animal instincts and our longing for freedom. It's the latter, the Buddha taught - liberation, nibbana. Yes, it goes against nature, if by nature, we define our animal instincts for immediate gratification, for status, wealth and power. Once we are disenchanted in all these, then the Dhamma doesn't go against nature, in the sense of always fighting our desires, but we would still need to guard our sense doors, since our habits are deeply ingrained. But gradually the focus shifts elsewhere, i.e. on to Dhamma practice and liberation.
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Cause_and_Effect
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Re: Is Nibbana unnatural? unnatural?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Nibbana is an uncreated element and so fully part of 'nature'.

It is simply the unconditioned element, as opposed to the conditional elements we are used to as part of Samsara.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Is Nibbana unnatural? unnatural?

Post by Ceisiwr »

You first need to define “natural”?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
SarathW
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Re: Is Nibbana unnatural? unnatural?

Post by SarathW »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:05 am You first need to define “natural”?
I call things happening effortlessly.
sun. moon, birth. death etc.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
SarathW
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Re: Is Nibbana unnatural? unnatural?

Post by SarathW »

Sorry the OP question should be corrected as:
Is Nibbana natural or unnatural?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Aloka
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Re: Is Nibbana unnatural? unnatural?

Post by Aloka »

SarathW wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 5:50 am Is Nibbana unnatural?
If Samsara creates itself without any effort, that has to be nature.
So Nibbana means that we are trying to stop nature.
Why Nibbana can not be natural?
What is your opinion on this?
My opinion is - try to speak less papanca, and spend more of your time meditating and practising the Brahma Viharas for all sentient beings.


:anjali:
justindesilva
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Re: Is Nibbana unnatural? unnatural?

Post by justindesilva »

SarathW wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:46 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:05 am You first need to define “natural”?
I call things happening effortlessly.
sun. moon, birth. death etc.
What is man made is unnatural. What appears surrounding us as sun moon air light are natural. Further nature is conditioned shuddashtaka while nibbana is shuddahtaka unconditioned. Hence Nirvana is nature bearing in mind Nirvana is a dhatu or element.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Is Nibbana unnatural? unnatural?

Post by Ceisiwr »

justindesilva wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:46 am
SarathW wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:46 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:05 am You first need to define “natural”?
I call things happening effortlessly.
sun. moon, birth. death etc.
What is man made is unnatural. What appears surrounding us as sun moon air light are natural. Further nature is conditioned shuddashtaka while nibbana is shuddahtaka unconditioned. Hence Nirvana is nature bearing in mind Nirvana is a dhatu or element.
I’m not sure about this. Are skyscrapers unnatural? Certainly they are the result of man manipulating his environment, but so are beaver dams. If beaver dams are natural, so too are skyscrapers and cars it seems to me. Man is an animal after all.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
justindesilva
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Re: Is Nibbana unnatural? unnatural?

Post by justindesilva »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:41 pm
justindesilva wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:46 am
SarathW wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:46 am
I call things happening effortlessly.
sun. moon, birth. death etc.
What is man made is unnatural. What appears surrounding us as sun moon air light are natural. Further nature is conditioned shuddashtaka while nibbana is shuddahtaka unconditioned. Hence Nirvana is nature bearing in mind Nirvana is a dhatu or element.
I’m not sure about this. Are skyscrapers unnatural? Certainly they are the result of man manipulating his environment, but so are beaver dams. If beaver dams are natural, so too are skyscrapers and cars it seems to me. Man is an animal after all.
Sky crapers or beaver dams or even houses are not created by forces of nature. Mountains, beaches , forests and storms are made of forces of nature with winds, sea waves and rains. Hence we got to understand the difference of naturality and unnaturality.
justindesilva
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Re: Is Nibbana unnatural? unnatural?

Post by justindesilva »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:41 pm
justindesilva wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:46 am
SarathW wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:46 am
I call things happening effortlessly.
sun. moon, birth. death etc.
What is man made is unnatural. What appears surrounding us as sun moon air light are natural. Further nature is conditioned shuddashtaka while nibbana is shuddahtaka unconditioned. Hence Nirvana is nature bearing in mind Nirvana is a dhatu or element.
I’m not sure about this. Are skyscrapers unnatural? Certainly they are the result of man manipulating his environment, but so are beaver dams. If beaver dams are natural, so too are skyscrapers and cars it seems to me. Man is an animal after all.
Sky crapers or beaver dams or even houses are not created by forces of nature. Mountains, beaches , forests and storms are made of forces of nature with winds, sea waves and rains. Hence we got to understand the difference of naturality and unnaturality.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Is Nibbana unnatural? unnatural?

Post by Ceisiwr »

justindesilva wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:15 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:41 pm
justindesilva wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:46 am

What is man made is unnatural. What appears surrounding us as sun moon air light are natural. Further nature is conditioned shuddashtaka while nibbana is shuddahtaka unconditioned. Hence Nirvana is nature bearing in mind Nirvana is a dhatu or element.
I’m not sure about this. Are skyscrapers unnatural? Certainly they are the result of man manipulating his environment, but so are beaver dams. If beaver dams are natural, so too are skyscrapers and cars it seems to me. Man is an animal after all.
Sky crapers or beaver dams or even houses are not created by forces of nature. Mountains, beaches , forests and storms are made of forces of nature with winds, sea waves and rains. Hence we got to understand the difference of naturality and unnaturality.
Are beaver dams natural or unnatural? What about bird nests? If they are natural, I don’t see a difference between a birds nest and a house other than the level of complexity involved. To me both are perfectly natural. So to for coal fired power stations, or toxic industrial waste.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Alino
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Re: Is Nibbana unnatural? unnatural?

Post by Alino »

Stopped car is a more natural state than rolling car.

Stopped state is more fondamental than rolling state.
Stopped state is more simple state.
All what is simple is not composed.
All what is not composed can not be broken apart
All what can not be broken can not be source of deception.

Silence is more fundamental than sound
White paper is more fundamental than colors
Flat surface is more fundamental than irregular surface
Peace is more fundamental than agitation
0 is more fundamental than numbers
Emptiness is more fundamental to form

The heart of a donut is empty of donut 🍩 but without this emptiness there is no donut.
Where is going donut's hole of an eaten donut?

As some one other said: The heart of an toilet is it's hole. Without a hole there is no toilet, it's a fundamental part of an toilet. All around can be dirty, but all dirt disappears in that hole...

In the same way all mathematics disappears inside the zero, and there is no numbers, no formulas without a zero. Zero is a simplest non-object of maths, you can not devide it, or make it bigger by multiplying it. It's unborn, uncreated, unchanged, inconditioned, immeasurable...

You can not describe silence with words
You can not paint absence of something
You can not show the shape on emptiness
...

Nibbana is a fundamental dhamma. As the hole of a donut, its empty of any quality of the donut, but it is the very heart of a donut. The simpliest dhamma. Its nature can be found everywhere. Its a transcendental dhamma.
There is Nibbana element in form, in color, in sound, in movement, in wight, in maths, in donut, in toilet, in car... and more important for us - in the mind...

The even presence of the dukkha indicate us that fundamentaly our minds are peaceful.
If its fundamental state would't be peace - it will be impossible for him to experience dukkha. So each time we experiance dukkha, or any bodily and mental information - we are in the presence of Nibbana element as fundamental peace of our hearts that can not be disturbed by any agitation on its surface... Nibbana is closer to us than our own self, that's why we don't see it, and that's why it provides freedom from self. It makes form, feelings, perceptions, mental formation and sense consciousness experianced as not me, not mine, not my self.

It is to be discovered, undercovered by the wise. This fundamental self-sufficient unconditioned peace and purity is the only refuge from dukkha of conditioned world.

🙏🙏🙏
We don't live Samsara, Samsara is living us...

"Form, feelings, perceptions, formations, consciousness - don't care about us, we don't exist for them"
justindesilva
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Re: Is Nibbana unnatural? unnatural?

Post by justindesilva »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:24 pm
justindesilva wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:15 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:41 pm

I’m not sure about this. Are skyscrapers unnatural? Certainly they are the result of man manipulating his environment, but so are beaver dams. If beaver dams are natural, so too are skyscrapers and cars it seems to me. Man is an animal after all.
Sky crapers or beaver dams or even houses are not created by forces of nature. Mountains, beaches , forests and storms are made of forces of nature with winds, sea waves and rains. Hence we got to understand the difference of naturality and unnaturality.
Are beaver dams natural or unnatural? What about bird nests? If they are natural, I don’t see a difference between a birds nest and a house other than the level of complexity involved. To me both are perfectly natural. So to for coal fired power stations, or toxic industrial waste.
Of course beavers dams and bird nests are made by these animals and beasts who observe and follow patterns and behaviour with nature. The building of nests along the riivers by certain birds predict rains, floods and dry periods. We have to understand their ways of living is in accordance with winds and rain. But since the industrial revolution, humans have had many environmental problems. Coal and smoke, with other agri industries have ruined the health of global communities with cancers , while it changed life styles towards hipertension and diabetes
A very good example of changing nature is seen from Hawaii.Hawaians early in 1960s lived a life with nature. The americans who invaded Hawai for tourism built skyscrapers and hotels on its beaches, as a result eroding the beaches. Today Hawai is a sad story with people living away from the natural lives they enjoyed. Even water is commercialised.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Is Nibbana unnatural? unnatural?

Post by Ceisiwr »

justindesilva wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:28 pm

Of course beavers dams and bird nests are made by these animals and beasts who observe and follow patterns and behaviour with nature. The building of nests along the riivers by certain birds predict rains, floods and dry periods. We have to understand their ways of living is in accordance with winds and rain. But since the industrial revolution, humans have had many environmental problems. Coal and smoke, with other agri industries have ruined the health of global communities with cancers , while it changed life styles towards hipertension and diabetes
A very good example of changing nature is seen from Hawaii.Hawaians early in 1960s lived a life with nature. The americans who invaded Hawai for tourism built skyscrapers and hotels on its beaches, as a result eroding the beaches. Today Hawai is a sad story with people living away from the natural lives they enjoyed. Even water is commercialised.
So if birds nests and beaver dams are natural i don’t see why skyscrapers aren’t. What proceeds from nature is natural, no? You seem to argue that what man does isn’t natural because it causes damage, but a lot of what the weather does also causes damage. There are also organisms which thrive in the toxic waste our factories and industries pump out. To them it’s quite beneficial. As to water, of course it’s commercialised. Water is scarce, so it needs to be rationed rationally. This means it has to have a price.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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