Is Nibbana unnatural? unnatural?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 12879
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
Contact:

Re: Is Nibbana unnatural? unnatural?

Post by cappuccino »

SarathW wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:47 am Is Nibbana natural or unnatural?
ignorance is natural, and awakening is abnormal


that's the difficulty… being in an abnormal state
User avatar
dicsoncandra
Posts: 257
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2021 3:19 pm
Location: Singapore
Contact:

Re: Is Nibbana unnatural? unnatural?

Post by dicsoncandra »

SarathW wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 5:50 am Is Nibbana unnatural?
If Samsara creates itself without any effort, that has to be nature.
So Nibbana means that we are trying to stop nature.
Why Nibbana can not be natural?
What is your opinion on this?
By "natural" if you mean full of contradictions (and assumptions), then that's what it is, samsara.

Nibbana is the end of all fabrications.
arising is manifest;
ceasing is manifest;
change-while-standing is manifest.

Link to website: http://dicsonstable.blog/
jons
Posts: 67
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2021 2:21 pm

Re: Is Nibbana unnatural? unnatural?

Post by jons »

SarathW wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 5:50 am Is Nibbana unnatural?
If Samsara creates itself without any effort, that has to be nature.
So Nibbana means that we are trying to stop nature.
Why Nibbana can not be natural?
What is your opinion on this?
The Buddha rediscovered the 4 Noble Truths and Nibbana.

No one created Nibbana and it means extinguished. The Buddha practiced the path to gain vision and Knowledge to eliminate all Kilesa and Asavas. At that point he awakes from Anatta, and rediscovers Nibbana.

Read Mahāsaccaka sutta https://suttacentral.net/mn36/en/sujato


We are all under the power of Anatta, and drown in Kilesas (conditioning/past conditioning/habit-forming/addiction) and Asavas (defilement/triggering outflow/drown/flood/mental diarrhea)

We practice the 4 Noble Truths to remove the Nature of Conditioning (nīvaraṇānas) from Citta, so we can experience the Nature of Unconditioning (Nibbana) in Citta.

So start working on developing the factors of awakening, and you are on your way to experience the Unconditioning (Nibbana).

My opinion
Jons
justindesilva
Posts: 2602
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:38 pm

Re: Is Nibbana unnatural? unnatural?

Post by justindesilva »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:59 pm
justindesilva wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:28 pm

Of course beavers dams and bird nests are made by these animals and beasts who observe and follow patterns and behaviour with nature. The building of nests along the riivers by certain birds predict rains, floods and dry periods. We have to understand their ways of living is in accordance with winds and rain. But since the industrial revolution, humans have had many environmental problems. Coal and smoke, with other agri industries have ruined the health of global communities with cancers , while it changed life styles towards hipertension and diabetes
A very good example of changing nature is seen from Hawaii.Hawaians early in 1960s lived a life with nature. The americans who invaded Hawai for tourism built skyscrapers and hotels on its beaches, as a result eroding the beaches. Today Hawai is a sad story with people living away from the natural lives they enjoyed. Even water is commercialised.
So if birds nests and beaver dams are natural i don’t see why skyscrapers aren’t. What proceeds from nature is natural, no? You seem to argue that what man does isn’t natural because it causes damage, but a lot of what the weather does also causes damage. There are also organisms which thrive in the toxic waste our factories and industries pump out. To them it’s quite beneficial. As to water, of course it’s commercialised. Water is scarce, so it needs to be rationed rationally. This means it has to have a price.
When people build they go beyond nature unlike birds and beasts. Birds have a sense of nature, unlike people who try to force on the environment. People make infrastructure and skyscrapers to suit there geed and lust, when birds build there nests sensing nature for theirbrequirements to live.. If this difference is overlooked one cannot understand real nature.
SarathW
Posts: 21227
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Is Nibbana unnatural? unnatural?

Post by SarathW »

Alino wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:11 pm Stopped car is a more natural state than rolling car.

Stopped state is more fondamental than rolling state.
Stopped state is more simple state.
All what is simple is not composed.
All what is not composed can not be broken apart
All what can not be broken can not be source of deception.

Silence is more fundamental than sound
White paper is more fundamental than colors
Flat surface is more fundamental than irregular surface
Peace is more fundamental than agitation
0 is more fundamental than numbers
Emptiness is more fundamental to form

The heart of a donut is empty of donut 🍩 but without this emptiness there is no donut.
Where is going donut's hole of an eaten donut?

As some one other said: The heart of an toilet is it's hole. Without a hole there is no toilet, it's a fundamental part of an toilet. All around can be dirty, but all dirt disappears in that hole...

In the same way all mathematics disappears inside the zero, and there is no numbers, no formulas without a zero. Zero is a simplest non-object of maths, you can not devide it, or make it bigger by multiplying it. It's unborn, uncreated, unchanged, inconditioned, immeasurable...

You can not describe silence with words
You can not paint absence of something
You can not show the shape on emptiness
...

Nibbana is a fundamental dhamma. As the hole of a donut, its empty of any quality of the donut, but it is the very heart of a donut. The simpliest dhamma. Its nature can be found everywhere. Its a transcendental dhamma.
There is Nibbana element in form, in color, in sound, in movement, in wight, in maths, in donut, in toilet, in car... and more important for us - in the mind...

The even presence of the dukkha indicate us that fundamentaly our minds are peaceful.
If its fundamental state would't be peace - it will be impossible for him to experience dukkha. So each time we experiance dukkha, or any bodily and mental information - we are in the presence of Nibbana element as fundamental peace of our hearts that can not be disturbed by any agitation on its surface... Nibbana is closer to us than our own self, that's why we don't see it, and that's why it provides freedom from self. It makes form, feelings, perceptions, mental formation and sense consciousness experianced as not me, not mine, not my self.

It is to be discovered, undercovered by the wise. This fundamental self-sufficient unconditioned peace and purity is the only refuge from dukkha of conditioned world.

🙏🙏🙏
:goodpost:
So nature is always moving from condition to uncondition?
I think there is a sciencetific word for this which I can't recall now.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8150
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Is Nibbana unnatural? unnatural?

Post by Coëmgenu »

I feel like this thread requires a comparison thread in "Connections" comparing Buddhadharma with the Dào and asking "which is supposed to be the natural law?" After that, another thread comparing Buddhism and Roman Catholicism, the philosophers of which first synthesized the notion of "natural law" out of their metaphysical and soteriological concerns coming out of the dilemma of "what God wills" versus "what God allows to happen." When you say "natural" to a Westerner, it has a lot more baggage than one might guess.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Pulsar
Posts: 2641
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Is Nibbana unnatural? unnatural?

Post by Pulsar »

SarathW wrote
Sorry the OP question should be corrected as:
Is Nibbana natural or unnatural?
Is it not obvious?
It is natural for the Arahant, it is unnatural for the birdbrain.
Best :candle:
D1W1
Posts: 619
Joined: Sat May 30, 2015 5:52 am

Re: Is Nibbana unnatural? unnatural?

Post by D1W1 »

From the viewpoint of the question, yes it is unnatural. When you ask this kind of question the answer will be unnatural. Nature is natural. Natures are birds, waterfalls, trees, wind and LIVES. No feeling, no consciousness, etc are not natural.
Alino
Posts: 650
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2020 3:15 pm
Contact:

Re: Is Nibbana unnatural? unnatural?

Post by Alino »

SarathW wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:33 pm
:goodpost:
So nature is always moving from condition to uncondition?
I think there is a sciencetific word for this which I can't recall now.
Yes, I see what you mean, I forgot the word too, but they say that all energy tends to disorder, to decomposition, to simplification, to calm to peace to state of balance. The movement it self seems to be the fruit of that tendency to go from more complicated and conditioned state, to more simple and unconditioned state. The problem here is that it revolves, but if we stop to pushing the wheel- it stops naturally.
If we look closely we can realise that practice is almost about not doing rather about doing. About not revolving.

Imho
We don't live Samsara, Samsara is living us...

"Form, feelings, perceptions, formations, consciousness - don't care about us, we don't exist for them"
Alino
Posts: 650
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2020 3:15 pm
Contact:

Re: Is Nibbana unnatural? unnatural?

Post by Alino »

SarathW wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:33 pm :goodpost:
So nature is always moving from condition to uncondition?
I think there is a sciencetific word for this which I can't recall now.
Entropy?

Also I would like to add about the point that a simple state is a more natural and unconditioned state.

Jhana practice is all about "unconditioning" of the mind.

We can compare mind in jhana with a water in space.
In order to going into space and leave terrestrial attraction, we need to eject a lot of matter (combustible in a space shuttle), this ejected matter pushes the shuttle up. When into the space, we can see that when water is not subject to terrestrial conditioning forces it takes a spherical shape, a composed state, simple state, balanced state. Being spherical its surface is smouth without waves and shadows and all sorts of lightenings created by these waves.
In the same way while a meditator practice jhana, his success in it depends on his ability to let go of cravings and attachments. Thus, by letting go, he goes beyond sensual sphere and mind is no more subject to sensual conditioning. Bring free from sensual sphere it gain a composed state, stable state, simple state, balance - so he experiance happiness. As the mind gains complete composure - mental proliferation due to imperfection on its surface stops. Also, being out of sense sphere it feels light, like water floating in space, this feeling of lightness of mind is joy.

So with that simile we can see that jhana mind is a more simple, more stable, more natural and unconditioned state of mind.
We don't live Samsara, Samsara is living us...

"Form, feelings, perceptions, formations, consciousness - don't care about us, we don't exist for them"
SarathW
Posts: 21227
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Is Nibbana unnatural? unnatural?

Post by SarathW »

Yes. I was thinking about entropy.
Even though the entropy is applicable to matter, perhaps we can assume that the mind also has this sort of quality.
Perhaps it is natural for all beings to seek some sort of Nibbana.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Alino
Posts: 650
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2020 3:15 pm
Contact:

Re: Is Nibbana unnatural? unnatural?

Post by Alino »

SarathW wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:18 am Yes. I was thinking about entropy.
Even though the entropy is applicable to matter, perhaps we can assume that the mind also has this sort of quality.
Perhaps it is natural for all beings to seek some sort of Nibbana.
Yes, I think so. They all seek peace and happiness. And Nibbana is ultimate peace.
We don't live Samsara, Samsara is living us...

"Form, feelings, perceptions, formations, consciousness - don't care about us, we don't exist for them"
justindesilva
Posts: 2602
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:38 pm

Re: Is Nibbana unnatural? unnatural?

Post by justindesilva »

Alino wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 7:09 am
SarathW wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:18 am Yes. I was thinking about entropy.
Even though the entropy is applicable to matter, perhaps we can assume that the mind also has this sort of quality.
Perhaps it is natural for all beings to seek some sort of Nibbana.
Yes, I think so. They all seek peace and happiness. And Nibbana is ultimate peace.
Entropy from a burning wood fire can be understood . Yet I find it difficult to gauge it with spirituality or nirvana. Please do excuse for my ignorance too.
Alino
Posts: 650
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2020 3:15 pm
Contact:

Re: Is Nibbana unnatural? unnatural?

Post by Alino »

justindesilva wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 7:21 am
Entropy from a burning wood fire can be understood . Yet I find it difficult to gauge it with spirituality or nirvana. Please do excuse for my ignorance too.
Anicca is entropy, or are directly related to each other.

All composed phenomenas tends to break apart, because they are made with different parts, because of their very complexity.

So in order to be absolutely stable and unchanable, such dhamma needs to be ultimately simple, not composed, not fabricated, not aggregated...

This simpliest dhamma is Nibbana.
We don't live Samsara, Samsara is living us...

"Form, feelings, perceptions, formations, consciousness - don't care about us, we don't exist for them"
Bundokji
Posts: 6494
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:57 pm

Re: Is Nibbana unnatural? unnatural?

Post by Bundokji »

I think "cognition" divided nature into natural and unnatural. From that perspective, nibbana is precognition. From precognition perspective, everything is natural.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
Post Reply