ignorance is natural, and awakening is abnormal
that's the difficulty… being in an abnormal state
ignorance is natural, and awakening is abnormal
By "natural" if you mean full of contradictions (and assumptions), then that's what it is, samsara.
The Buddha rediscovered the 4 Noble Truths and Nibbana.
When people build they go beyond nature unlike birds and beasts. Birds have a sense of nature, unlike people who try to force on the environment. People make infrastructure and skyscrapers to suit there geed and lust, when birds build there nests sensing nature for theirbrequirements to live.. If this difference is overlooked one cannot understand real nature.Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:59 pmSo if birds nests and beaver dams are natural i don’t see why skyscrapers aren’t. What proceeds from nature is natural, no? You seem to argue that what man does isn’t natural because it causes damage, but a lot of what the weather does also causes damage. There are also organisms which thrive in the toxic waste our factories and industries pump out. To them it’s quite beneficial. As to water, of course it’s commercialised. Water is scarce, so it needs to be rationed rationally. This means it has to have a price.justindesilva wrote: ↑Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:28 pm
Of course beavers dams and bird nests are made by these animals and beasts who observe and follow patterns and behaviour with nature. The building of nests along the riivers by certain birds predict rains, floods and dry periods. We have to understand their ways of living is in accordance with winds and rain. But since the industrial revolution, humans have had many environmental problems. Coal and smoke, with other agri industries have ruined the health of global communities with cancers , while it changed life styles towards hipertension and diabetes
A very good example of changing nature is seen from Hawaii.Hawaians early in 1960s lived a life with nature. The americans who invaded Hawai for tourism built skyscrapers and hotels on its beaches, as a result eroding the beaches. Today Hawai is a sad story with people living away from the natural lives they enjoyed. Even water is commercialised.
Alino wrote: ↑Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:11 pm Stopped car is a more natural state than rolling car.
Stopped state is more fondamental than rolling state.
Stopped state is more simple state.
All what is simple is not composed.
All what is not composed can not be broken apart
All what can not be broken can not be source of deception.
Silence is more fundamental than sound
White paper is more fundamental than colors
Flat surface is more fundamental than irregular surface
Peace is more fundamental than agitation
0 is more fundamental than numbers
Emptiness is more fundamental to form
The heart of a donut is empty of donut but without this emptiness there is no donut.
Where is going donut's hole of an eaten donut?
As some one other said: The heart of an toilet is it's hole. Without a hole there is no toilet, it's a fundamental part of an toilet. All around can be dirty, but all dirt disappears in that hole...
In the same way all mathematics disappears inside the zero, and there is no numbers, no formulas without a zero. Zero is a simplest non-object of maths, you can not devide it, or make it bigger by multiplying it. It's unborn, uncreated, unchanged, inconditioned, immeasurable...
You can not describe silence with words
You can not paint absence of something
You can not show the shape on emptiness
...
Nibbana is a fundamental dhamma. As the hole of a donut, its empty of any quality of the donut, but it is the very heart of a donut. The simpliest dhamma. Its nature can be found everywhere. Its a transcendental dhamma.
There is Nibbana element in form, in color, in sound, in movement, in wight, in maths, in donut, in toilet, in car... and more important for us - in the mind...
The even presence of the dukkha indicate us that fundamentaly our minds are peaceful.
If its fundamental state would't be peace - it will be impossible for him to experience dukkha. So each time we experiance dukkha, or any bodily and mental information - we are in the presence of Nibbana element as fundamental peace of our hearts that can not be disturbed by any agitation on its surface... Nibbana is closer to us than our own self, that's why we don't see it, and that's why it provides freedom from self. It makes form, feelings, perceptions, mental formation and sense consciousness experianced as not me, not mine, not my self.
It is to be discovered, undercovered by the wise. This fundamental self-sufficient unconditioned peace and purity is the only refuge from dukkha of conditioned world.
Is it not obvious?Sorry the OP question should be corrected as:
Is Nibbana natural or unnatural?
Yes, I see what you mean, I forgot the word too, but they say that all energy tends to disorder, to decomposition, to simplification, to calm to peace to state of balance. The movement it self seems to be the fruit of that tendency to go from more complicated and conditioned state, to more simple and unconditioned state. The problem here is that it revolves, but if we stop to pushing the wheel- it stops naturally.
Entropy?
Yes, I think so. They all seek peace and happiness. And Nibbana is ultimate peace.
Anicca is entropy, or are directly related to each other.justindesilva wrote: ↑Tue Jul 27, 2021 7:21 am
Entropy from a burning wood fire can be understood . Yet I find it difficult to gauge it with spirituality or nirvana. Please do excuse for my ignorance too.