Cessation of Feeling and Perception

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 1:02 am
So I'll have to apologize. The matter is actually more ambiguous than I was aware of. You do have a reason to think the sutta talks about saññavedayitanirodha. I don't agree that it does. The principle issue is that saññavedayitanirodha is a foretaste of Parinibbāna, according as far as I can see to the Theravādin mainstream, which is without the body and mind, and not of Nibbāna, which is experienced with a body and mind. It's an issue of confusion over the two nibbānadhātus.

I'll assume that you are familiar with the two nibbānadhātus. There is a famous sutta called the Nibbānadhātusutta, Iti 44, that deals with them if anyone is unfamiliar.

I didn't know that Theravāda also called saññavedayitanirodha "bhavanirodha."
Regarding the two types of Nibbāna
NIBBĀNA, PARINIBBĀNA

As is well known, nibbāna literally means the extinction of a fire. In popular works on Buddhism, nibbāna plain and simple is often taken to signify Nibbāna as experienced in life, parinibbāna Nibbāna attained at death. This is a misinterpretation. Long ago E.J. Thomas pointed out (possibly on the basis of a suggestion by E. Kuhn) that the prefix pari- converts a verb from the expression of a state into the expression of the achievement of an action, so that the corresponding noun nibbāna becomes the state of release, parinibbāna the attaining of that state. [History of Buddhist Thought, p. 121, n. 4.] The distinction does not really work very well for the verb, as we find both parinibbāyati and nibbāyati used to designate the act of attaining release, but it appears to be fairly tenable in regard to the nouns. (In verse, however, we do sometimes find nibbāna used to denote the event, for example in the line pajjotass’ eva nibbānaṃ at v. 612c.) Words related to both nibbāna and parinibbāna designate both the attaining of release during life through the experience of full enlightenment, and the attaining of final release from conditioned existence through the breakup of the physical body of death. Thus, for instance, the verb parinibbāyati is commonly used to describe how a bhikkhu achieves release while alive (e.g., at II 82,20; III 54,3; IV 23,8–9, etc.) and also to indicate the passing away of the Buddha or an arahant (e.g., at I 158,23; V 161,25).

The past participle forms, nibbuta and parinibbuta, are from a different verbal root than the nouns nibbāna and parinibbāna. The former is from nir + vṛ, the latter from nir + vā. The noun appropriate to the participles is nibbuti, which occasionally occurs in the texts as a synonym for nibbāna but with a function that is more evocative (of tranquillity, complete rest, utter peace) than systematic. (It seems no prefixed noun parinibbuti is attested to in Pāli.) At an early time the two verb forms were conflated, so that the participle parinibbuta became the standard adjective used to denote one who has undergone parinibbāna. Like the verb, the participle is used in apposition to both the living Buddha or arahant (I 1,21, 187,8) and the deceased one (I 122,13, 158,24). Possibly, however, parinibbuta is used in relation to the living arahant only in verse, while in prose its technical use is confined to one who has expired. In sutta usage, even when the noun parinibbāna denotes the passing away of an arahant (particularly of the Buddha), it does not mean “Nibbāna after death.” It is, rather, the event of passing away undergone by one who has already attained Nibbāna during life.

The suttas distinguish between two elements of Nibbāna: the Nibbāna element with residue (sa-upādisesa-nibbānadhātu) and the Nibbāna element without residue (anupādisesanibbānadhātu )—the residue (upādisesa) being the compound of the five aggregates produced by prior craving and kamma (It 38–39). The former is the extinction of lust, hatred, and delusion attained by the arahant while alive; the latter is the remainderless cessation of all conditioned existence that occurs with the arahant’s death. In the commentaries the two elements of Nibbāna are respectively called kilesaparinibbāna, the quenching of defilements at the attainment of arahantship, and khandhaparinibbāna , the quenching of the continuum of aggregates with the arahant’s demise. Though the commentaries treat the two Nibbāna elements and the two kinds of parinibbāna as interchangeable and synonymous, in sutta usage it may be preferable to see the two kinds of parinibbāna as the events which give access to the two corresponding Nibbāna elements. Parinibbāna, then, is the act of quenching; nibbāna, the state of quenchedness.

To explain the philology of a term is not to settle the question of its interpretation. What exactly is to be made of the various explanations of Nibbāna given in the Nikāyas has been a subject of debate since the early days of Buddhism, with the ground divided between those who regard it as the mere extinction of defilements and cessation of existence and those who understand it as a transcendental (lokuttara) ontological reality. In SN some suttas explain Nibbāna as the destruction of lust, hatred, and delusion, which emphasizes the experiential psychological dimension; elsewhere it is called the unconditioned, which seems to place the stress on ontological transcendence. The Theravāda commentators regard Nibbāna as an unconditioned element. [This is clearly maintained in the debate on Nibbāna recorded at Vism 507–9 (Ppn 16:67–74). See too the long extract from the Paramatthamañjūsā, Dhammapāla’s commentary on Vism, translated by Ñāṇamoli at Ppn pp. 825–26, n. 18.] They hold that when Nibbāna is called the destruction of the defilements (of lust, hatred, and delusion, etc.) and the cessation of the five aggregates, this requires interpretation. Nibbāna itself, as an existent, is unborn, unmade, unbecome, unconditioned (see Ud 80–81). It is in dependence on this element (taṃ āgamma), by arriving at it, that there takes place the destruction of the defilements and release from conditioned existence. Nibbāna itself, however, is not reducible to these two events, which are, in their actual occurrence, conditioned events happening in time. On this interpretation, the two Nibbāna elements are seen as stages in the full actualization of the unconditioned Nibbāna, not simply as two discrete events.

In the present work I leave nibbāna untranslated, for the term is too rich in evocative meaning and too defiant of conceptual specification to be satisfactorily captured by any proposed English equivalent. I translate parinibbāna as “final Nibbāna,” since the noun form usually means the passing away of an arahant (or the Buddha), final release from conditioned existence; sometimes, however, its meaning is ambiguous, as in the statement “the Dhamma [is] taught by the Blessed One for the sake of final Nibbāna without clinging (anupādāparinibbānatthaṃ)” (IV 48,78), which can mean either Nibbāna during life or the full cessation of existence.

The verb parinibbāyati perhaps could have been incorporated into English with “nibbanize,” which would be truest to the Pāli, but this would be too much at variance with current conventions. Thus when the verb refers to the demise of the Buddha or an arahant, I render it “attains final Nibbāna,” but when it designates the extinguishing of defilements by one who attains enlightenment, I render it simply “attains Nibbāna.” We also find a personal noun form, parinibbāyī, which I render “an attainer of Nibbāna,” as it can be construed in either sense. In prose the past participle parinibbuta, used as a doctrinal term, always occurs with reference to a deceased arahant and so it is translated “has attained final Nibbāna.” In verse, it can take on either meaning; when it describes a living arahant (or the Buddha) I translate it more freely as “fully quenched.” The unprefixed form nibbuta does not always carry the same technical implications as parinibbuta, but can mean simply “peaceful, satisfied, at ease,” without necessarily establishing that the one so described has attained Nibbāna. [For a play on the two senses of nibbuta, see the Bodhisatta’s reflections before his great renunciation at Ja I 60–61.] At I 24,11 and II 279,8 it has this implication; at I 236,21 it seems to mean simply peaceful; at III 43, in the compound tadaṅganibbuta, it definitely does not imply Nibbāna, for the point there is that the monk has only approximated to the real attainment of the goal. Cognates of parinibbāna appear in colloquial speech with a nondoctrinal sense; for example, both parinibbāyati and parinibbuta are used to describe the taming of a horse (at MN I 446,8–10). But even here they seem to be used with a “loaded meaning,” since the horse simile is introduced to draw a comparison with a monk who attains arahantship.
Ven. Bodhi

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/ni ... idue/13161
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:58 pmRegarding the two types of Nibbāna
[...] The past participle forms, nibbuta and parinibbuta, are from a different verbal root than the nouns nibbāna and parinibbāna. The former is from nir + vṛ, the latter from nir + vā. The noun appropriate to the participles is nibbuti, which occasionally occurs in the texts as a synonym for nibbāna but with a function that is more evocative (of tranquillity, complete rest, utter peace) than systematic. [...]
Clearly I'm missing something. Are not nibbuta and the other past participles, like in saṁskāra --> saṁskṛta (nirvāṇa --> nirvṛta)? My Sanskrit/Pāli isn't the best. I wouldn't know.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 1:04 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:58 pmRegarding the two types of Nibbāna
[...] The past participle forms, nibbuta and parinibbuta, are from a different verbal root than the nouns nibbāna and parinibbāna. The former is from nir + vṛ, the latter from nir + vā. The noun appropriate to the participles is nibbuti, which occasionally occurs in the texts as a synonym for nibbāna but with a function that is more evocative (of tranquillity, complete rest, utter peace) than systematic. [...]
Clearly I'm missing something. Are not nibbuta and the other past participles, like in saṁskāra --> saṁskṛta (nirvāṇa --> nirvṛta)? My Sanskrit/Pāli isn't the best. I wouldn't know.
I won't pretend to know more than you here. This question is above my pay grade.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
auto
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by auto »

Pondera wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 3:09 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:04 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:11 am AN 11.7 is describing the saint in yogic equipoise, cognizing Nibbāna, just like AN 10.7. As Ven Sāriputta says, "bhavanirodho nibbānaṃ." But what you think the sutta is talking about is fundamentally flawed. The sutta you've cited has not been "without fail" because it is not talking about saññāvedayitanirodha. It has sañña present. This really isn't that hard.
Saves me saying it, again. Thanks.
Yet AN 11.8 (where awareness is present in Nirodha) is quite obviously Nirodha Samapatti
Could it be, sir, that a mendicant might gain a state of immersion like this. They wouldn’t be aware of the eye or sights, ear or sounds, nose or smells, tongue or tastes, or body or touches. …
…Yet they would be aware?”

“It could be, Ānanda.”
So, 🤷 the protege and the master are hooped.

Eel wriggle your way out, if you can.
take Sutta mn1, it mentions
https://suttacentral.net/mn1/en/sujato wrote: They perceive earth as earth.
pathaviṁ pathavito sañjānāti;
that is before one starts identify with the earth,
https://suttacentral.net/mn1/en/sujato wrote: But then they identify with earth, they identify regarding earth, they identify as earth, they identify that ‘earth is mine’, they take pleasure in earth.
pathaviṁ pathavito saññatvā pathaviṁ maññati, pathaviyā maññati, pathavito maññati, pathaviṁ meti maññati, pathaviṁ abhinandati.
Why is that?
Taṁ kissa hetu?
Because they haven’t completely understood it, I say.
‘Apariññātaṁ tassā’ti vadāmi.
The identification is a dependent origination link before existence. And when cessation happens, you will just have that original perception.
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

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auto wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:21 pm
Pondera wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 3:09 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:04 am

Saves me saying it, again. Thanks.
Yet AN 11.8 (where awareness is present in Nirodha) is quite obviously Nirodha Samapatti
Could it be, sir, that a mendicant might gain a state of immersion like this. They wouldn’t be aware of the eye or sights, ear or sounds, nose or smells, tongue or tastes, or body or touches. …
…Yet they would be aware?”

“It could be, Ānanda.”
So, 🤷 the protege and the master are hooped.

Eel wriggle your way out, if you can.
take Sutta mn1, it mentions
https://suttacentral.net/mn1/en/sujato wrote: They perceive earth as earth.
pathaviṁ pathavito sañjānāti;
that is before one starts identify with the earth,
https://suttacentral.net/mn1/en/sujato wrote: But then they identify with earth, they identify regarding earth, they identify as earth, they identify that ‘earth is mine’, they take pleasure in earth.
pathaviṁ pathavito saññatvā pathaviṁ maññati, pathaviyā maññati, pathavito maññati, pathaviṁ meti maññati, pathaviṁ abhinandati.
Why is that?
Taṁ kissa hetu?
Because they haven’t completely understood it, I say.
‘Apariññātaṁ tassā’ti vadāmi.
The identification is a dependent origination link before existence. And when cessation happens, you will just have that original perception.
The importance of “earth” in AN 11.7 and 8 is the role it plays as the first element in the rupa jhana scheme.

It is not simply enough to see earth and identify with earth in order to later grow disenchanted with it. No. One must enter the “earth jhana” and truly experience the sukha and piti therein - so that, one may abandon such pleasures for the sake of samadhi; right knowledge; and right liberation.

The role of “water” is the same.

The rupa jhanas are called rupa precisely because they follow this scheme.

Earth jhana
Water jhana
Fire Jhana
Wind jhana

Rahula is expected to meditate on rupa. Rupa are four of the ten universal objects of meditation. They are four of the six properties of a person.

It is necessary to find earth, water, fire and wind in their purest forms as they exist WITHIN YOUR BODY AND MIND!

That is the meaning of rupa jhana and the meaning of AN 11.7 and 8.

That description in those suttas lay out the following.

1st jhana to 8th

Earth, water, fire, wind, space, consciousness, nothingness, neither perception nor non perception.

It is a very simple inference to note that “rupa” jhana is the ascension of the most gross element to the most refined element.

And the reasons why we cling to those elements is experienced in the piti and sukha that accompany the experience of those elements in their purest forms as a meditative object. Not only piti and sukha. But also (as in the case of the wind jhana) adukkhaasukkha and upekkha.

Some will object, saying “earth” alone can get you from 1st jhana all the way up to and including 4th. This is a misconception of a very particular monk who lived in the 3rd century AD.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by auto »

Pondera wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:17 am .
Earth, water.. are ultimate realities- they are born of perception. In case of jhāna, these ultimate realities have mundane(earth, water..) support.
The sukha, piti are jhāna factors what help establish concentration on an object.
Pondera wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:17 am Some will object, saying “earth” alone can get you from 1st jhana all the way up to and including 4th. This is a misconception of a very particular monk who lived in the 3rd century AD.
I noticed you keep holding to a view where you equate jhāna with an element. It is understandable that you disagree with Sutta and the commentaries.
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

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auto wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:36 pm [Earth, water.. are ultimate realities- they are born of perception.
That’s not what the Abhidhamma teaches.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
auto
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by auto »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:51 pm
auto wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:36 pm [Earth, water.. are ultimate realities- they are born of perception.
That’s not what the Abhidhamma teaches.
What is your wrong view then, care to explain? so i can figure out why you think like that
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

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auto wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:00 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:51 pm
auto wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:36 pm [Earth, water.. are ultimate realities- they are born of perception.
That’s not what the Abhidhamma teaches.
What is your wrong view then, care to explain? so i can figure out why you think like that
The earth element is one ultimate reality, sanna is another. Ultimate realities are not “born of perception”. That sounds more Mahayana than Theravada.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
auto
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Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by auto »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:04 pm The earth element is one ultimate reality, sanna is another. Ultimate realities are not “born of perception”. That sounds more Mahayana than Theravada.
I think the confusion were stemming from writing too shortly,
Earth, water.. are ultimate realities and are perceived when in jhāna, opposed to viewing them through sense organs. - born of perception
As for second sentence you made,
Feeling, perception are two of the 52 cetasika. Cetasika is ultimate reality what arise dependent on citta, and citta depends on cetasika. That means they can arise and pass away(if you meant they can't arise, born).
abhidhamma Tin Mon wrote:Cetasika—mental factors or mental concomitants.
Cetasikas arise and perish together with citta. They depend
on citta for their arising and they have influence on citta. There
are 52 kinds of cetasikas. What we usually call ‘mind’ is actually
a combination of citta and cetasikas. Neither citta nor
cetasikas can arise independently.
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

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auto wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:36 pm
Pondera wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:17 am .
Earth, water.. are ultimate realities- they are born of perception. In case of jhāna, these ultimate realities have mundane(earth, water..) support.
The sukha, piti are jhāna factors what help establish concentration on an object.
Pondera wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:17 am Some will object, saying “earth” alone can get you from 1st jhana all the way up to and including 4th. This is a misconception of a very particular monk who lived in the 3rd century AD.
I noticed you keep holding to a view where you equate jhāna with an element. It is understandable that you disagree with Sutta and the commentaries.
I don’t disagree with the suttas. In fact the suttas agree with me!

Six properties of a person: earth, water, fire, wind, space, and consciousness.

Ten Universal objects of meditation: earth, water, fire, wind, space, consciousness, red, blue, yellow, white.

Six exhortations to Rahula by his father the Buddha: meditate in tune with these six elements: earth, water, fire, wind, space, and consciousness.

AN 11.7 AN 11.8

The list of “immersions”. Ie. can a person be immersed in Such a way …

Earth, water, fire, wind, space, consciousness…

Nothingness, neither perception nor non perception…

That which is not seen, heard, or sought after by the mind.

It’s quite clear that “rupa jhana” - is rooted in “rupa”.

What is “rupa”? The four elements and their formations.

Four elements + four rupa jhanas + plenty of sutta support = I’m right and you don’t know what you’re talking about.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by auto »

Pondera wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:35 pm AN 11.7 AN 11.8

The list of “immersions”. Ie. can a person be immersed in Such a way …
You might be focusing on Suttas where the teaching is explained to the other pathers. Where the person is doing concentration, instead of seeing oneself in dhamma.

I think it is not a list of immersions in these Suttas,
https://suttacentral.net/an11.7/en/sujato wrote: “Ānanda, it’s when a mendicant perceives:
“Idha, āvuso ānanda, bhikkhu evaṁsaññī hoti:
‘This is peaceful; this is sublime—that is, the stilling of all activities, the letting go of all attachments, the ending of craving, fading away, cessation, extinguishment.’
‘etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ, yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭinissaggo taṇhākkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānan’ti.
That’s how a mendicant might gain a state of immersion like this. They wouldn’t perceive earth in earth … And they wouldn’t perceive what is seen, heard, thought, known, attained, sought, or explored by the mind. And yet they would still perceive.”
Evaṁ kho, āvuso ānanda, siyā bhikkhuno tathārūpo samādhipaṭilābho yathā neva pathaviyaṁ pathavisaññī assa …pe… yampidaṁ diṭṭhaṁ sutaṁ mutaṁ viññātaṁ pattaṁ pariyesitaṁ anuvicaritaṁ manasā, tatrāpi na saññī assa, saññī ca pana assā”ti.
but an elaborated explanation of non-clinging, which is for to personally attain liberation
https://suttacentral.net/mn140/en/sujato wrote:They neither make a choice nor form an intention to continue existence or to end existence.
So neva taṁ abhisaṅkharoti, na abhisañcetayati bhavāya vā vibhavāya vā.
Because of this, they don’t grasp at anything in the world.
So anabhisaṅkharonto anabhisañcetayanto bhavāya vā vibhavāya vā na kiñci loke upādiyati,
Not grasping, they’re not anxious. Not being anxious, they personally become extinguished.
anupādiyaṁ na paritassati, aparitassaṁ paccattaṁyeva parinibbāyati.
It is different kind of samadhi possible for who think there is a person with elements.
Pondera wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:35 pm It’s quite clear that “rupa jhana” - is rooted in “rupa”.

What is “rupa”? The four elements and their formations.

Four elements + four rupa jhanas + plenty of sutta support = I’m right and you don’t know what you’re talking about.
I were wrong, you are entitled to your opinion, you can't know better.
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by Pondera »

auto wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:11 pm
Pondera wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:35 pm AN 11.7 AN 11.8

The list of “immersions”. Ie. can a person be immersed in Such a way …
You might be focusing on Suttas where the teaching is explained to the other pathers. Where the person is doing concentration, instead of seeing oneself in dhamma.

I think it is not a list of immersions in these Suttas,
https://suttacentral.net/an11.7/en/sujato wrote: “Ānanda, it’s when a mendicant perceives:
“Idha, āvuso ānanda, bhikkhu evaṁsaññī hoti:
‘This is peaceful; this is sublime—that is, the stilling of all activities, the letting go of all attachments, the ending of craving, fading away, cessation, extinguishment.’
‘etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ, yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭinissaggo taṇhākkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānan’ti.
That’s how a mendicant might gain a state of immersion like this. They wouldn’t perceive earth in earth … And they wouldn’t perceive what is seen, heard, thought, known, attained, sought, or explored by the mind. And yet they would still perceive.”
Evaṁ kho, āvuso ānanda, siyā bhikkhuno tathārūpo samādhipaṭilābho yathā neva pathaviyaṁ pathavisaññī assa …pe… yampidaṁ diṭṭhaṁ sutaṁ mutaṁ viññātaṁ pattaṁ pariyesitaṁ anuvicaritaṁ manasā, tatrāpi na saññī assa, saññī ca pana assā”ti.
but an elaborated explanation of non-clinging, which is for to personally attain liberation
https://suttacentral.net/mn140/en/sujato wrote:They neither make a choice nor form an intention to continue existence or to end existence.
So neva taṁ abhisaṅkharoti, na abhisañcetayati bhavāya vā vibhavāya vā.
Because of this, they don’t grasp at anything in the world.
So anabhisaṅkharonto anabhisañcetayanto bhavāya vā vibhavāya vā na kiñci loke upādiyati,
Not grasping, they’re not anxious. Not being anxious, they personally become extinguished.
anupādiyaṁ na paritassati, aparitassaṁ paccattaṁyeva parinibbāyati.
It is different kind of samadhi possible for who think there is a person with elements.
Pondera wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:35 pm It’s quite clear that “rupa jhana” - is rooted in “rupa”.

What is “rupa”? The four elements and their formations.

Four elements + four rupa jhanas + plenty of sutta support = I’m right and you don’t know what you’re talking about.
I were wrong, you are entitled to your opinion, you can't know better.
“I can’t know better”?

I laugh when people pass judgment on others. Especially when they are unqualified to do so.

Those who pass judgment on others are among the most conceited.

For you, auto, who I understand English may not be your first language - most of your posts are incoherent. And yet you never hear anyone judging you for that.

Nor am I. But to add conceit to incoherence … you are developing a negative attitude.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
auto
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by auto »

Pondera wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:18 pm “I can’t know better”?

I laugh when people pass judgment on others. Especially when they are unqualified to do so.

Those who pass judgment on others are among the most conceited.

For you, auto, who I understand English may not be your first language - most of your posts are incoherent. And yet you never hear anyone judging you for that.

Nor am I. But to add conceit to incoherence … you are developing a negative attitude.
You are yet another person who doesn't recognize when asked about important questions and give fail answers. I asked about 'repeat thing' on your My path thread. You are wasting time with surface nonsense, thinking piti and sukha is why to meditate.. making parallel with Ogasms.

lastly the accusation of becoming negative, its too late. In this forum i am managed to be reserved. Did i mentioned you are repeating sukha and piti nonsense.

I admitted in my post that i were wrong to say you disagree with the Suttas.
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Pondera
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by Pondera »

auto wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:51 pm
Pondera wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:18 pm “I can’t know better”?

I laugh when people pass judgment on others. Especially when they are unqualified to do so.

Those who pass judgment on others are among the most conceited.

For you, auto, who I understand English may not be your first language - most of your posts are incoherent. And yet you never hear anyone judging you for that.

Nor am I. But to add conceit to incoherence … you are developing a negative attitude.
You are yet another person who doesn't recognize when asked about important questions and give fail answers. I asked about 'repeat thing' on your My path thread. You are wasting time with surface nonsense, thinking piti and sukha is why to meditate.. making parallel with Ogasms.
As I recall, I had no answer to your question because it was a) unintelligible and b) beyond the scope of my post.

To clarify - I made a parallel with orgasms in distinct reference to nimittas. IMHO - the best a nimitta can do is shock your body and give you an instant dry orgasm. I have no other interest in nimittas.
lastly the accusation of becoming negative, its too late. In this forum i am managed to be reserved. Did i mentioned you are repeating sukha and piti nonsense.

I admitted in my post that i were wrong to say you disagree with the Suttas.
Piti and sukha nonsense? I don’t see how that is the case. I explain piti and sukha with reference to the Upanisaa Sutta.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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