Cessation of Feeling and Perception

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dicsoncandra
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Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by dicsoncandra »

Could the samādhi that is the cessation of feeling and perception not mean literally but rather due to disowning these two aggregates through the cessation of contact (phassa) (that is born out of ignorance (avijja))? This would pertain to the direct experience of anatta and make a lot of sense considering that only the anagami and arahant could practice this form of meditation as they are the only ones free from sensuality.

arising is manifest;
ceasing is manifest;
change-while-standing is manifest.

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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by Ceisiwr »

dicsoncandra wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:01 pm Could the samādhi that is the cessation of feeling and perception not mean literally but rather due to disowning these two aggregates through the cessation of contact (phassa) (that is born out of ignorance (avijja))? This would pertain to the direct experience of anatta and make a lot of sense considering that only the anagami and arahant could practice this form of meditation as they are the only ones free from sensuality.

I would take it as literal non-arising whilst in that attainment. The mind is literally turned off completely. It is, in essence, a taste of final Nibbana. This is different to when the Buddha, Arahants, once-returners and stream-enterers meditate on nibbana with consciousness (the singless, desirelessness and emptiness meditations). There the mind is actively cognising nibbana, taking it as it’s object.
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Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by dicsoncandra »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:18 pm
dicsoncandra wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:01 pm Could the samādhi that is the cessation of feeling and perception not mean literally but rather due to disowning these two aggregates through the cessation of contact (phassa) (that is born out of ignorance (avijja))? This would pertain to the direct experience of anatta and make a lot of sense considering that only the anagami and arahant could practice this form of meditation as they are the only ones free from sensuality.

I would take it as literal non-arising whilst in that attainment. The mind is literally turned off completely. It is, in essence, a taste of final Nibbana. This is different to when the Buddha, Arahants, once-returners and stream-enterers meditate on nibbana with consciousness (the singless, desirelessness and emptiness meditations). There the mind is actively cognising nibbana, taking it as it’s object.
Okay, but through what other means could one 'turn off' the mind if not through disowning the conceit 'I am'? Hence why the consciousness is said to be refined into subtler ones along that path of meditation by replacing one with a broader or more general context (infinite space to infinite cosciousness, and so on), in which the only basis for the attainment of neither perception nor non-perception is the conceit 'I am', the way I think of it at the moment.
arising is manifest;
ceasing is manifest;
change-while-standing is manifest.

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2600htz
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by 2600htz »

Hi:

Do you mean perceptions and feelings still arise in that state, but they are taken as "not self" ?.

That is not the case. Cessation of perceptions and feelings is related to seeing dependent origination. Arising and ceasing of the links. Without cessation you cant really see arising and ceasing of phenomena, since they are already there. You need a complete "fresh start".

Also, its somehow debatable, but Anagamis and arahants can dwell in that attainment periodically, yet its a little different to the experience of someone attaining it for a path or fruition of a stage of awakening.

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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by Ceisiwr »

dicsoncandra wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:40 pm
Okay, but through what other means could one 'turn off' the mind if not through disowning the conceit 'I am'? Hence why the consciousness is said to be refined into subtler ones along that path of meditation by replacing one with a broader or more general context (infinite space to infinite cosciousness, and so on), in which the only basis for the attainment of neither perception nor non-perception is the conceit 'I am', the way I think of it at the moment.
The Buddha could enter into said attainment. It therefore has nothing directly to do with disowning the conceit of “I am”. Conceit can only be when there is vedana and sanna. Get rid of I am, and vedana and sanna will still be there. To put it another way, if being without conceit entailed nirodha samapatti then the Buddha would have just died under the Bodhi tree.
31. (vi) How does its attainment come about? It comes about in one who performs the preparatory tasks by striving with serenity and insight and causes the cessation of [consciousness belonging to] the base consisting of neither perception nor non-perception. One who strives with serenity alone reaches the base consisting of neither perception nor non-perception and remains there, while one who strives with insight alone reaches the attainment of fruition and remains there. But it is one who strives with both, and after performing the preparatory tasks, causes the cessation of [consciousness belonging to] the base consisting of neither perception nor non-perception, who attains it. This is in brief.
32. But the detail is this. When a bhikkhu who desires to attain cessation has finished all that has to do with his meal and has washed his hands and feet well, he sits down on a well-prepared seat in a secluded place. Having folded his legs crosswise, set his body erect, established mindfulness in front of him, he attains the first jhána, and on emerging he sees the formations in it with insight as impermanent, painful, not-self.
33. This insight is threefold as insight that discerns formations, insight for the attainment of fruition, and insight for the attainment of cessation. Herein, insight that discerns formations, whether sluggish or keen, is the proximate cause only for a path. Insight for the attainment of fruition, which is only valid when keen, is similar to that for the development of a path. Insight for the attainment of cessation is only valid when it is not over-sluggish and not over-keen. Therefore he sees those formations with insight that is not over-sluggish and not over-keen.
34. After that, he attains the second jhána, and on emerging he sees formations with insight in like manner. After that, he attains the third jhána ... (etc.) ... After that, he attains the base consisting of boundless consciousness, and on emerging he sees the formations in it in like manner. Likewise he attains the base consisting of nothingness…

43. . Now, when he has thus attained the base consisting of nothingness and emerged and done this preparatory task, he then attains the base consisting of neither perception nor non-perception. Then after one or two turns of consciousness have passed, he becomes without consciousness, he achieves cessation. But why do consciousnesses not go on occurring in him after the two consciousnesses? Because the effort is directed to cessation. For this bhikkhu’s mounting through the eight attainments, coupling together the states of serenity and insight, [708] is directed to successive cessation, not to attaining the base consisting of neither perception nor non-perception. So it is because the effort is directed to cessation that no more than the two consciousnesses occur.
Visuddhimagga - CHAPTER XXIII The Benefits in Developing Understanding
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:18 pm The mind is literally turned off completely.
:shrug:
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by pegembara »

The active mental sankhara of thinking stops, then breathing(physical sankhara) stops, and eventually the passive mental sankhara of perception and feelings. A taste of a peaceful "death" ie. final nibbana without actually being dead. Being "dead to the world".
"In-&-out breaths are bodily fabrications. Directed thought & evaluation are verbal fabrications. Perceptions & feelings are mental fabrications."

"But why are in-&-out-breaths bodily fabrications? Why are directed thought & evaluation verbal fabrications? Why are perceptions & feelings mental fabrications?"

"In-&-out-breaths are bodily; these are things tied up with the body. That's why in-&-out-breaths are bodily fabrications. Having first directed one's thoughts and made an evaluation, one then breaks out into speech. That's why directed thought & evaluation are verbal fabrications. Perceptions & feelings are mental; these are things tied up with the mind. That's why perceptions & feelings are mental fabrications."

"Now, lady, how does the attainment of the cessation of perception & feeling come about?"

"But when a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, which things cease first: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, or mental fabrications?"

"When a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, verbal fabrications cease first, then bodily fabrications, then mental fabrications."[1]

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

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Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:18 pm
dicsoncandra wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:01 pm Could the samādhi that is the cessation of feeling and perception not mean literally but rather due to disowning these two aggregates through the cessation of contact (phassa) (that is born out of ignorance (avijja))? This would pertain to the direct experience of anatta and make a lot of sense considering that only the anagami and arahant could practice this form of meditation as they are the only ones free from sensuality.

I would take it as literal non-arising whilst in that attainment. The mind is literally turned off completely. It is, in essence, a taste of final Nibbana. This is different to when the Buddha, Arahants, once-returners and stream-enterers meditate on nibbana with consciousness (the singless, desirelessness and emptiness meditations). There the mind is actively cognising nibbana, taking it as it’s object.
The following contradicts your statement, as I understand it.
“Ānanda, it’s when a mendicant perceives: ‘This is peaceful; this is sublime—that is, the stilling of all activities, the letting go of all attachments, the ending of craving, fading away, cessation, extinguishment.’
That’s how a mendicant might gain a state of immersion like this. They wouldn’t perceive earth in earth, water in water, fire in fire, or air in air. And they wouldn’t perceive the dimension of infinite space in the dimension of infinite space, the dimension of infinite consciousness in the dimension of infinite consciousness, the dimension of nothingness in the dimension of nothingness, or the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. They wouldn’t perceive this world in this world, or the other world in the other world. And they wouldn’t perceive what is seen, heard, thought, known, attained, sought, or explored by the mind. And yet they would still perceive.
You say “the mind is shut off”. That is clearly not the case. Because you think mindfulness must imply a self - you wrongly attribute “annihilation” to Nirodha Samapatti. That is not the case, as the above sutta clearly shows.
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by Coëmgenu »

Pondera wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:39 pmYou say “the mind is shut off”. That is clearly not the case. Because you think mindfulness must imply a self - you wrongly attribute “annihilation” to Nirodha Samapatti. That is not the case, as the above sutta clearly shows.
Actually, if you look back at what you've said, it is you who thinks that mindfulness must imply a self. More precisely, it is you who thinks that cognition, "the mind," must imply a self. The mind can be shut off in a few ways. It can be shut off in nirodhasamāpatti. It can be shut off in asaṃjñāsamāpatti, or "false nirvāṇa" as it is called in the Prajñāpāramitā tradition, as if likening it to fool's gold. I can't find which, but the Buddha talks about the asaññasattas in one of the suttas. Asaṃjñāsamāpatti is considered particularly dangerous in the other aforementioned tradition because it is too similar to nirvāṇa. So the mind "shuts off" in at least two samādhis.

None of these "shutting downs" of the mind implies an annihilation of the self. It is the one who posits that the mind shutting down constitutes the annihilation of the self who is the one who identifies the mind with the self.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by Pondera »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:01 am
Pondera wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:39 pmYou say “the mind is shut off”. That is clearly not the case. Because you think mindfulness must imply a self - you wrongly attribute “annihilation” to Nirodha Samapatti. That is not the case, as the above sutta clearly shows.
Actually, if you look back at what you've said, it is you who thinks that mindfulness must imply a self. More precisely, it is you who thinks that cognition, "the mind," must imply a self. The mind can be shut off in a few ways. It can be shut off in nirodhasamāpatti. It can be shut off in asaṃjñāsamāpatti, or "false nirvāṇa" as it is called in the Prajñāpāramitā tradition, as if likening it to fool's gold. I can't find which, but the Buddha talks about the asaññasattas in one of the suttas. Asaṃjñāsamāpatti is considered particularly dangerous in the other aforementioned tradition because it is too similar to nirvāṇa. So the mind "shuts off" in at least two samādhis.

None of these "shutting downs" of the mind implies an annihilation of the self. It is the one who posits that the mind shutting down constitutes the annihilation of the self who is the one who identifies the mind with the self.
So for you, having not attained Nirodha Samapatti, i clearly understand your remarks.

In fact, I identify the agency in Nirodha Samapatti that is clearly “percipient” and clearly “aware” as a “singularity” in the expanse of cessation of perception and feeling.

I, contrary to your accusations, do not posit a self. However, in line with what has been said by the Buddha I posit a certain “perception” or “awareness” in the realm of Nirodha Samapatti. That is a spacial and temporal singularity.

Having experienced it my self, I am qualified to remark on it. Having not experienced it, you are invalid in your poorly executed remarks.
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by Coëmgenu »

Your descriptions of your attainments are contrary to the Buddhadharma and I've no reason to believe in them.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by DooDoot »

dicsoncandra wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:01 pm Could the samādhi that is the cessation of feeling and perception not mean literally but rather due to disowning these two aggregates through the cessation of contact (phassa) (that is born out of ignorance (avijja))? This would pertain to the direct experience of anatta and make a lot of sense considering that only the anagami and arahant could practice this form of meditation as they are the only ones free from sensuality.
Its difficult to watch a monk without mindfulness about the body fondling himself so I had to turn the video off.

However, to give my opinion on the question:

1. Cessation of feeling and perception is obviously a type of samatha because it occurs after the immaterial spheres, which each are gradual reductions of sense experience. Thus cessation of feeling and perception is an unconscious state because MN 43 says consciousness, feeling & perception are "cojoined", meaning one cannot arise without the others. Also, MN 43 compares the cessation of feeling and perception to a corpse; however the only difference between it and a corpse is it continues to have physical vitality, heat & physical sense organs.

2. The suttas (eg Iti 44) say an Arahant has feelings at sense contact therefore the cessation of contact (phassa) that is born out of ignorance (avijja) cannot be the same as cessation of feeling and perception. Also, the cessation of dependent origination is called "without remainder" (which is never used with cessation of feeling and perception).

3. In short, the two uses of cessation above appear to have different meanings.

4. None of the above appears related to sensuality. :smile:
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by DooDoot »

pegembara wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:20 pm The active mental sankhara of thinking stops, then breathing(physical sankhara) stops, and eventually the passive mental sankhara of perception and feelings.
Thinking is called verbal sankhara.
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by Pondera »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:33 am Your descriptions of your attainments are contrary to the Buddhadharma and I've no reason to believe in them.
I don’t dispute your reasons for not believing me, (that is easy to understand of a cynic) but I do dispute your allegation that my description of attainment is counter to Buddha Dhamma.

How so, if you please? Or are you merely casting personal doubt?
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by Coëmgenu »

It's called "saññavedayitanirodha." You are casting doubt that sañña ceases in it.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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