Cessation of Feeling and Perception

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
Pondera
Posts: 3060
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by Pondera »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:33 am Your descriptions of your attainments are contrary to the Buddhadharma and I've no reason to believe in them.
The Buddha has clearly stated that both perception and awareness exist in the unconditioned - in that which goes beyond sight, smell, sound, taste, touch, or mind.

I affirm that, having seen it with my own vision. So what is it that you accuse me of?

Is it because I posit a “singularity” in the boundless realm of Unbinding.

I do so without reference to a Self. So what is it you accuse me of? How have I contradicted the Buddha Dhamma?

How have I offended you and Ceisiwr in your false representations of the Dhamma?
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8149
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by Coëmgenu »

You're not being accused of anything aside from equating cognition with "the self" when you posted. I said that I don't believe in your attainment and that your descriptions of them are contrary to the Buddha's teaching. I invited you to look at the word itself. This isn't about you. It's about something wrong you said. Please don't insist on making things personal.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
User avatar
Pondera
Posts: 3060
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by Pondera »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:15 am It's called "saññavedayitanirodha." You are casting doubt that sañña ceases in it.
Funny old man. Do you dispute the accuracy of the suttas?
Then Venerable Ānanda went up to the Buddha, bowed, sat down to one side, and said to him:

“Could it be, sir, that a mendicant might gain a state of immersion like this? They wouldn’t perceive earth in earth, water in water, fire in fire, or air in air. And they wouldn’t perceive the dimension of infinite space in the dimension of infinite space, the dimension of infinite consciousness in the dimension of infinite consciousness, the dimension of nothingness in the dimension of nothingness, or the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. They wouldn’t perceive this world in this world, or the other world in the other world. And they wouldn’t perceive what is seen, heard, thought, known, attained, sought, or explored by the mind. And yet they would still perceive.

“It could be, Ānanda, that a mendicant might gain a state of immersion like this. They wouldn’t perceive earth in earth, water in water, fire in fire, or air in air. And they wouldn’t perceive the dimension of infinite space in the dimension of infinite space, the dimension of infinite consciousness in the dimension of infinite consciousness, the dimension of nothingness in the dimension of nothingness, or the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. They wouldn’t perceive this world in this world, or the other world in the other world. And they wouldn’t perceive what is seen, heard, thought, known, attained, sought, or explored by the mind. And yet they would still perceive.
You, having zero knowledge of Nirodha Samapatti, make statements that are beyond your own range.

I make statements that are within my range - that are supported by Buddha Dhamma.

Silly.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
User avatar
Pondera
Posts: 3060
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by Pondera »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:19 am You're not being accused of anything aside from equating cognition with "the self" when you posted. I said that I don't believe in your attainment and that your descriptions of them are contrary to the Buddha's teaching. I invited you to look at the word itself. This isn't about you. It's about something wrong you said. Please don't insist on making things personal.
Refer to the teachings, young man.

In my defence, I posit no self - only the awareness and perception that is posited in the Buddha Dhamma.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8149
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by Coëmgenu »

The sutta you are quoting is not even talking about what you are saying it is talking about.
Pondera wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:23 amIn my defence, I posit no self - only the awareness and perception that is posited in the Buddha Dhamma.
In that case, if you are able, go back and look to the last page with a fresh mind and find where you associate the so-called "shut down" of the mind with the annihilation of the self.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
User avatar
Pondera
Posts: 3060
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by Pondera »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:26 am The sutta you are quoting is not even talking about what you are saying it is talking about.
I say that perception and awareness exist in Nirodha Samapatti.

Ceisiwr states that “the mind is literally shut off” in Nirodha Samapatti.

I am defending against Ceisiwr’s positing of a “non-aware” mind in Nirodha Samapatti - with (instead) a singularity in Nirodha Samapatti that is both percipient and aware (according to my own experience - and with support from suttas).

The implication of Ceisiwr is that Nirodha Samapatti is an “unconscious” state.

What a farse! Why would the Buddha endorse an unconscious state as “knowledge and vision of ending”?

That implication is ridiculous. And your misconstruction and deliberate skewing of my position are as equally ridiculous.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8149
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by Coëmgenu »

I'm aware of what Ceisiwr is claiming. Think: it's saññavedayitanirodha. The sutta you are citing is describing Nibbāna itself.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:41 am, edited 2 times in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
User avatar
Pondera
Posts: 3060
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by Pondera »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:26 am The sutta you are quoting is not even talking about what you are saying it is talking about.
Pondera wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:23 amIn my defence, I posit no self - only the awareness and perception that is posited in the Buddha Dhamma.
In that case, if you are able, go back and look to the last page with a fresh mind and find where you associate the so-called "shut down" of the mind with the annihilation of the self.
To posit Nirodha Samapatti as an “unconscious” state is to posit it as “annihilation”.

If Ceisiwr wants to admit that those who enter Nirodha Samapatti also experience perception and awareness, let HIM do so.

I can tell you are eager to shut me down, YOUR SELF!

This is not your battle, young man.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8149
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by Coëmgenu »

I'm sorry that you are having a hard time dealing with being wrong and want to make this a personal thing where it's me versus you. That's not really the case.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
pegembara
Posts: 3454
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:39 am

Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by pegembara »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:48 am
pegembara wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:20 pm The active mental sankhara of thinking stops, then breathing(physical sankhara) stops, and eventually the passive mental sankhara of perception and feelings.
Thinking is called verbal sankhara.
Sankhara can be active or passive.

Verbal fabrication is active mental state as the mind fabricates thoughts, ideas, fantasies etc. Then one may or may not actually break out in speech.

Feeling and perception on the other hand is a passive mental state.

There is the perception of infinite space, infinite consciousness, nothingness among other things.
"Or he doesn't assume form to be the self, but he assumes the self as possessing form... form as in the self... self as in form... or feeling to be the self... the self as possessing feeling... feeling as in the self... self as in feeling... or perception to be the self... the self as possessing perception... perception as in the self... self as in perception... or fabrications to be the self... the self as possessing fabrications... fabrications as in the self... self as in fabrications... or consciousness to be the self... the self as possessing consciousness... consciousness as in the self... self as in consciousness.

It is by knowing & seeing in this way that one without delay puts an end to the effluents."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Last edited by pegembara on Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
User avatar
Pondera
Posts: 3060
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by Pondera »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:38 am I'm aware of what Ceisiwr is claiming. Think: its saññavedayitanirodha. The sutt you are citing is describing Nibbāna itself.
Are you sure?
They wouldn’t perceive this world in this world, or the other world in the other world. And they wouldn’t perceive what is seen, heard, thought, known, attained, sought, or explored by the mind.
Is that a description of Nibbana or Nirodha Samapatti?
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
User avatar
Pondera
Posts: 3060
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by Pondera »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:41 am I'm sorry that you are having a hard time dealing with being wrong and want to make this a personal thing where it's me versus you. That's not really the case.
You’re funny. I appreciate the slight. I have absolutely no qualms with the suttas or my personal experience.

I’m sorry that YOU find it highly unlikely that someone such as myself may have experienced Nirodha Samapatti.

Unfortunately for you, your statistics don’t mean anything. And your doubt is pathetic. I have cited the suttas without fail or misrepresentation.

You have offered nothing but personal opinion and an “inner circle” defence of your protege, Ceisiwr.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 12032
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by DooDoot »

pegembara wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:57 am Sankhara can be active or passive.
I doubt there is any sutta support for the above idea. What is the Pali for "active" & "passive"? Thanks
pegembara wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:57 amVerbal fabrication is active mental state as the mind fabricates thoughts, ideas, fantasies etc.
Sankhara above does not appear to be mean "fabrication". You appear to be creating your own ideology.
pegembara wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:57 amThen one may or may not actually break out in speech.
Irrelevant.
pegembara wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:57 amFeeling and perception on the other hand is a passive mental state.
Again, sounds like inventing ideology.
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8149
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by Coëmgenu »

AN 11.7 is describing the saint in yogic equipoise, cognizing Nibbāna, just like AN 10.7. As Ven Sāriputta says, "bhavanirodho nibbānaṃ." But what you think the sutta is talking about is fundamentally flawed. The sutta you've cited has not been "without fail" because it is not talking about saññāvedayitanirodha. It has sañña present. This really isn't that hard.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
User avatar
Pondera
Posts: 3060
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by Pondera »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:11 am AN 11.7 is describing the saint in yogic equipoise, cognizing Nibbāna, just like AN 10.7. As Ven Sāriputta says, "bhavanirodho nibbānaṃ." But what you think the sutta is talking about is fundamentally flawed. The sutta you've cited has not been "without fail" because it is not talking about saññāvedayitanirodha. It has sañña present. This really isn't that hard.
You fail to see the subtle indication that even in Nirodha there are traces of perception and awareness. That amuses me.

You are confounding regular sanna with extra perceptual sanna.
Last edited by Pondera on Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:27 am, edited 3 times in total.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
Post Reply