Cessation of Feeling and Perception

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:11 am AN 11.7 is describing the saint in yogic equipoise, cognizing Nibbāna, just like AN 10.7. As Ven Sāriputta says, "bhavanirodho nibbānaṃ." But what you think the sutta is talking about is fundamentally flawed. The sutta you've cited has not been "without fail" because it is not talking about saññāvedayitanirodha. It has sañña present. This really isn't that hard.
Saves me saying it, again. Thanks.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
Mr Albatross
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by Mr Albatross »

dicsoncandra wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:41 am Or instead of turning the video off you could have just looked away?
Like Doodoot I switched it off. I mean the man is an absolute horror show to watch. How can a monk who fidgets so much expect anyone to believe that he knows the darnedest thing about mental equipoise? My teacher would roast him for such a lack of restraint. In places it looks like he's trying to impersonate a monkey being stung by ants.




"With hands controlled and feet controlled,
in speech as well as head controlled,
delighting in inward collectedness
alone, content, he is called a bhikkhu."
(Dhammapada 262)
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dicsoncandra
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by dicsoncandra »

Mr Albatross wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:21 am
dicsoncandra wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:41 am Or instead of turning the video off you could have just looked away?
Like Doodoot I switched it off. I mean the man is an absolute horror show to watch. How can a monk who fidgets so much expect anyone to believe that he knows the darnedest thing about mental equipoise? My teacher would roast him for such a lack of restraint. In places it looks like he's trying to impersonate a monkey being stung by ants.




"With hands controlled and feet controlled,
in speech as well as head controlled,
delighting in inward collectedness
alone, content, he is called a bhikkhu."
(Dhammapada 262)
It would be very pleasing to see a teacher who behaves according to our expectation. But judging a teaching based on feeling alone isn't very wise either, would it? I certainly did relate to how Doodoot and you feel but patience endurance in the beginning paid off and now whatever behaviour he seemingly portrays doesn't budge me anymore. Perhaps it's his upbringing but my words, their talks are truly eye-opening
arising is manifest;
ceasing is manifest;
change-while-standing is manifest.

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Jack19990101
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by Jack19990101 »

This reminded me of the story of Sariputta.
Quote--
For example, Phra Sariputta. Many monks of that time were very critical of him because he was seemingly unrefined in behavior and speech. He was someone who liked to have fun. Whenever he got to a small pond or puddle, he would just hop or jump over it. People who saw this would say that he was very unrefined and undeserving of being the Buddha’s foremost disciple. Some of the monks didn’t believe that he was even an arahant due to his unrefined behavior. So there was a problem. The Buddha had to call a meeting of the Sangha (collective of monks) and the Buddha had to personally vouch that Phra Sariputta was an arahant in order for people to believe that he was an arahant. Phra Sariputta was an example of deep water and shallow shadow. It is the same way in our era. People who are shallow water and deep shadow or deep water and shallow shadow are all mixed up.
end of Quote--
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by Ceisiwr »

dicsoncandra wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:01 pm
Out of interest, do you know why Bhante keeps defining contact as “pressure” in the video? Seems rather odd to me.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by dicsoncandra »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:19 pm
dicsoncandra wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:01 pm
Out of interest, do you know why Bhante keeps defining contact as “pressure” in the video? Seems rather odd to me.
Perhaps because the term 'pressure' is more relatable in the experience of a person, because it is indeed felt that way. Actually, explaining it as 'pressure' to non-Buddhists allow them to be more congruent with their own experience because the term 'contact' is rather scholarly and I know this based on my own experience and personal relationship
arising is manifest;
ceasing is manifest;
change-while-standing is manifest.

Link to website: http://dicsonstable.blog/
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by Ceisiwr »

dicsoncandra wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:25 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:19 pm
dicsoncandra wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:01 pm
Out of interest, do you know why Bhante keeps defining contact as “pressure” in the video? Seems rather odd to me.
Perhaps because the term 'pressure' is more relatable in the experience of a person, because it is indeed felt that way. Actually, explaining it as 'pressure' to non-Buddhists allow them to be more congruent with their own experience because the term 'contact' is rather scholarly and I know this based on my own experience and personal relationship
What about mental contact? A member here used to argue that mental dhammas offer “resistance”. Your thoughts?
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by dicsoncandra »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:24 pm
dicsoncandra wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:25 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:19 pm

Out of interest, do you know why Bhante keeps defining contact as “pressure” in the video? Seems rather odd to me.
Perhaps because the term 'pressure' is more relatable in the experience of a person, because it is indeed felt that way. Actually, explaining it as 'pressure' to non-Buddhists allow them to be more congruent with their own experience because the term 'contact' is rather scholarly and I know this based on my own experience and personal relationship
What about mental contact? A member here used to argue that mental dhammas offer “resistance”. Your thoughts?
The term 'mental contact' is not descriptive of how it's felt. 'Resistance' would be more descriptive but could be easily overlooked with regard to pleasant feeling as the term is often associated with the painful feeling
arising is manifest;
ceasing is manifest;
change-while-standing is manifest.

Link to website: http://dicsonstable.blog/
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by Ceisiwr »

dicsoncandra wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:28 pm
The term 'mental contact' is not descriptive of how it's felt. 'Resistance' would be more descriptive but could be easily overlooked with regard to pleasant feeling as the term is often associated with the painful feeling
I don’t think “pressure” quite applies to mental contact either.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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dicsoncandra
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by dicsoncandra »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:34 pm
dicsoncandra wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:28 pm
The term 'mental contact' is not descriptive of how it's felt. 'Resistance' would be more descriptive but could be easily overlooked with regard to pleasant feeling as the term is often associated with the painful feeling
I don’t think “pressure” quite applies to mental contact either.
I personally relate to it more practically. It makes a wonderful reminder too in my experience. I guess you could choose to stick with what you're comfortable with. In the end the Dhamma is to be practised

:anjali:
arising is manifest;
ceasing is manifest;
change-while-standing is manifest.

Link to website: http://dicsonstable.blog/
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pondera wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:39 pm
The following contradicts your statement, as I understand it.
Clearly the mind is still active here. What is being cognised is nibbāna. It is therefore phala-samāpatti as opposed to nirodha-samāpatti, where the mind is not active.
You say “the mind is shut off”. That is clearly not the case. Because you think mindfulness must imply a self - you wrongly attribute “annihilation” to Nirodha Samapatti. That is not the case, as the above sutta clearly shows.
I've never said mindfulness is a self.
The Buddha has clearly stated that both perception and awareness exist in the unconditioned - in that which goes beyond sight, smell, sound, taste, touch, or mind.
He said no such thing. Nibbāna is empty of all conditioned dhammas, including "perception and awareness". If nibbāna is beyond mind, how can there be perception and awareness in it as you claim? This is contradictory.
I am defending against Ceisiwr’s positing of a “non-aware” mind in Nirodha Samapatti - with (instead) a singularity in Nirodha Samapatti that is both percipient and aware (according to my own experience - and with support from suttas).
It's not a "non-aware mind". There is no mind in that attainment. They are two diametrically opposed states. If the mind is, then nirodha-samāpatti is not and vice versa.
The implication of Ceisiwr is that Nirodha Samapatti is an “unconscious” state.

What a farse! Why would the Buddha endorse an unconscious state as “knowledge and vision of ending”?

That implication is ridiculous. And your misconstruction and deliberate skewing of my position are as equally ridiculous
Because even subtle and refined consciousness and perception is dukkha. No matter how refined it is, it is not total stillness, cessation and peace. Don't be the fool who get's stuck on refined states of mind. In the end even that must be left behind.
To posit Nirodha Samapatti as an “unconscious” state is to posit it as “annihilation”.
It is only "annihilation" if you belief in a real Self which then ceases in said state. The self is merely a concept. It's not real, and so in reality there is no self to begin with which could be annihilated. This is the point the annihilationists themselves got stuck on. They were chasing the end of something that wasn't there to begin with, with that very mistaken notion being behind much of their suffering. If they had just let go instead of giving into aversion they would have seen no one is there at all. They would then have found the peace they were striving for.
If Ceisiwr wants to admit that those who enter Nirodha Samapatti also experience perception and awareness, let HIM do so.
I'm not going to change my mind. It's clearly a mistaken view of yours.
You have offered nothing but personal opinion and an “inner circle” defence of your protege, Ceisiwr.
Always two there are, no more, no less. A master and an apprentice :jedi: :jumping:
You fail to see the subtle indication that even in Nirodha there are traces of perception and awareness. That amuses me.
From the point of view of the Abhidhamma all mental dhammas temporarily halt, even the mental life faculty which sustains mental states.
However, since he follows the abhidamma he won’t even allow for conscious experience in the first Jhana.
Neither I nor the Ābhidhammikas, southern or northern, have argued such a thing. There is conscious experience in all of the jhānas. What isn't experienced are the 5 senses, since they are temporarily shut down. Nirodha-samāpatti is the culmination of this abandoning process, for monks and nuns who are gifted enough. Others will be liberated via wisdom with 1-4 of the jhānas.
You are forgiven, of course. You are only speculating and pontificating. You have no direct experience of the thing. In all likelihood, you will not experience it in your life time. But don’t let that stop you from labouring on and on about it - making utter fools of your selves.
It is extremely unlikely that I will achieve such a high level of mastery of the mind, yes. It is extremely unlikely for most monks and nuns, and it was a small number of monks or nuns during the Buddha's time who could do it (though possibly larger than today). I struggle reaching the 1st Jhāna still. It's a long and winding road for me, but it's at least slowly progressing in the right direction. Some progress has been made, which when combined with what I know of the Dhamma intellectually is enough for me not to believe what you have claimed here and elsewhere.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Pondera
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by Pondera »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:18 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:33 am Your descriptions of your attainments are contrary to the Buddhadharma and I've no reason to believe in them.
:goodpost:
:computerproblem: bad post. Unfounded. Presumptuous. Made without any proof.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Pondera
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by Pondera »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:34 pm
I wrote:

The Buddha has clearly stated that both perception and awareness exist in the unconditioned - in that which goes beyond sight, smell, sound, taste, touch, or mind.

Ceisiwr wrote:

He said no such thing. Nibbāna is empty of all conditioned dhammas, including "perception and awareness". If nibbāna is beyond mind, how can there be perception and awareness in it as you claim? This is contradictory.
I do not need to answer this ridiculous question based on dogmatic presumption. When in fact we have the following suttas.

https://suttacentral.net/an11.7/en/sujato

https://suttacentral.net/an11.8/en/sujato

In particular:
“Could it be, sir, that a mendicant might gain a state of immersion like this. They wouldn’t be aware of the eye or sights, ear or sounds, nose or smells, tongue or tastes, or body or touches. They wouldn’t be aware of earth in earth, water in water, fire in fire, or air in air. And they wouldn’t be aware of the dimension of infinite space in the dimension of infinite space, the dimension of infinite consciousness in the dimension of infinite consciousness, the dimension of nothingness in the dimension of nothingness, or the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. They wouldn’t be aware of this world in this world, or the other world in the other world. And they wouldn’t be aware of what is seen, heard, thought, known, attained, sought, or explored by the mind. Yet they would be aware?”

“It could be, Ānanda.”
If only you could put the same presumptuous question to the Buddha himself. I assume he would remark:

“Did you not just hear what I have said?” 🤷

But, be my guest. Explain the meaning of these two suttas with reference to Nirodha.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by pegembara »

“Could it be, sir, that a mendicant might gain a state of immersion like this. They wouldn’t be aware of the eye or sights, ear or sounds, nose or smells, tongue or tastes, or body or touches. They wouldn’t be aware of earth in earth, water in water, fire in fire, or air in air. And they wouldn’t be aware of the dimension of infinite space in the dimension of infinite space, the dimension of infinite consciousness in the dimension of infinite consciousness, the dimension of nothingness in the dimension of nothingness, or the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. They wouldn’t be aware of this world in this world, or the other world in the other world. And they wouldn’t be aware of what is seen, heard, thought, known, attained, sought, or explored by the mind. Yet they would be aware?”

“It could be, Ānanda.”
So, in emptiness, there is no body,
no feeling, no thought,
no will, no consciousness.
There are no eyes, no ears,
no nose, no tongue,
no body, no mind.
There is no seeing, no hearing,
no smelling, no tasting,
no touching, no imagining.
There is nothing seen, nor heard,
nor smelled, nor tasted,
nor touched, nor imagined.

There is no ignorance,
and no end to ignorance.
There is no old age and death,
and no end to old age and death.
There is no suffering, no cause of suffering,
no end to suffering, no path to follow.
There is no attainment of wisdom,
and no wisdom to attain.

The Bodhisattvas rely on the Perfection of Wisdom,
and so with no delusions,
they feel no fear,
and have Nirvana here and now.

Heart Sutra

Just can't resist. :smile:
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Pondera
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by Pondera »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:04 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:11 am AN 11.7 is describing the saint in yogic equipoise, cognizing Nibbāna, just like AN 10.7. As Ven Sāriputta says, "bhavanirodho nibbānaṃ." But what you think the sutta is talking about is fundamentally flawed. The sutta you've cited has not been "without fail" because it is not talking about saññāvedayitanirodha. It has sañña present. This really isn't that hard.
Saves me saying it, again. Thanks.
Yet AN 11.8 (where awareness is present in Nirodha) is quite obviously Nirodha Samapatti
Could it be, sir, that a mendicant might gain a state of immersion like this. They wouldn’t be aware of the eye or sights, ear or sounds, nose or smells, tongue or tastes, or body or touches. …
…Yet they would be aware?”

“It could be, Ānanda.”
So, 🤷 the protege and the master are hooped.

Eel wriggle your way out, if you can.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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