Cessation of Feeling and Perception

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Pondera
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by Pondera »

pegembara wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 2:52 am
“Could it be, sir, that a mendicant might gain a state of immersion like this. They wouldn’t be aware of the eye or sights, ear or sounds, nose or smells, tongue or tastes, or body or touches. They wouldn’t be aware of earth in earth, water in water, fire in fire, or air in air. And they wouldn’t be aware of the dimension of infinite space in the dimension of infinite space, the dimension of infinite consciousness in the dimension of infinite consciousness, the dimension of nothingness in the dimension of nothingness, or the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. They wouldn’t be aware of this world in this world, or the other world in the other world. And they wouldn’t be aware of what is seen, heard, thought, known, attained, sought, or explored by the mind. Yet they would be aware?”

“It could be, Ānanda.”
So, in emptiness, there is no body,
no feeling, no thought,
no will, no consciousness.
There are no eyes, no ears,
no nose, no tongue,
no body, no mind.
There is no seeing, no hearing,
no smelling, no tasting,
no touching, no imagining.
There is nothing seen, nor heard,
nor smelled, nor tasted,
nor touched, nor imagined.

There is no ignorance,
and no end to ignorance.
There is no old age and death,
and no end to old age and death.
There is no suffering, no cause of suffering,
no end to suffering, no path to follow.
There is no attainment of wisdom,
and no wisdom to attain.

The Bodhisattvas rely on the Perfection of Wisdom,
and so with no delusions,
they feel no fear,
and have Nirvana here and now.

Heart Sutra

Just can't resist. :smile:
:goodpost:
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
Mr Albatross
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by Mr Albatross »

dicsoncandra wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 11:04 am But judging a teaching based on feeling alone isn't very wise either, would it?
I beg to differ. Monks can certainly be judged by their self-control and composure, with constant fidgeting being a reliable sign that they haven't been well trained. If a monk can't even hack sila, why trust him on samadhi and pañña?
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by dicsoncandra »

Mr Albatross wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:35 am
dicsoncandra wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 11:04 am But judging a teaching based on feeling alone isn't very wise either, would it?
I beg to differ. Monks can certainly be judged by their self-control and composure, with constant fidgeting being a reliable sign that they haven't been well trained. If a monk can't even hack sila, why trust him on samadhi and pañña?
sīla is rooted in intention and it's not always visible. I wouldn't know what is his context of samadhi when he engages in the conversation. I acknowledge that I don't need to trust anything and what I listen to I apply in my own practice. If reading or listening to empty scriptures allows me to develop my own sīla, samādhi and paññā then it is only beneficial for my practice. If I can't stand the attitude and choose to dismiss it, then I gain nothing from listening or not listening to it, simple as that. If I can develop clarity with regard to my own practice, that is what matters to me so I don't find the necessity to pin my understanding on one teacher or another
arising is manifest;
ceasing is manifest;
change-while-standing is manifest.

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Pondera
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by Pondera »

The two great C’s have abandoned the discussion, it seems.

An admission of defeat?

I feel an abject insult coming … eg. “I’ve already answered this question. If you wish to continue believing your wrong view that is your choice…” etc. Etc.

I don’t think the dynamic duo have an answer for me. They are “confounded”.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pondera wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:54 am The two great C’s have abandoned the discussion, it seems.

An admission of defeat?

I feel an abject insult coming … eg. “I’ve already answered this question. If you wish to continue believing your wrong view that is your choice…” etc. Etc.

I don’t think the dynamic duo have an answer for me. They are “confounded”.
It’s called being in work.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by dicsoncandra »

pegembara wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:20 pm The active mental sankhara of thinking stops, then breathing(physical sankhara) stops, and eventually the passive mental sankhara of perception and feelings. A taste of a peaceful "death" ie. final nibbana without actually being dead. Being "dead to the world".
"In-&-out breaths are bodily fabrications. Directed thought & evaluation are verbal fabrications. Perceptions & feelings are mental fabrications."

"But why are in-&-out-breaths bodily fabrications? Why are directed thought & evaluation verbal fabrications? Why are perceptions & feelings mental fabrications?"

"In-&-out-breaths are bodily; these are things tied up with the body. That's why in-&-out-breaths are bodily fabrications. Having first directed one's thoughts and made an evaluation, one then breaks out into speech. That's why directed thought & evaluation are verbal fabrications. Perceptions & feelings are mental; these are things tied up with the mind. That's why perceptions & feelings are mental fabrications."

"Now, lady, how does the attainment of the cessation of perception & feeling come about?"

"But when a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, which things cease first: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, or mental fabrications?"

"When a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, verbal fabrications cease first, then bodily fabrications, then mental fabrications."[1]

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
wow, this is actually very comprehensive. I remember that the Venerable quote this passage in one of their talks but hadn't checked the sutta reference. Thank you for this!
arising is manifest;
ceasing is manifest;
change-while-standing is manifest.

Link to website: http://dicsonstable.blog/
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by Coëmgenu »

Pondera wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 2:01 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:18 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:33 am Your descriptions of your attainments are contrary to the Buddhadharma and I've no reason to believe in them.
:goodpost:
:computerproblem: bad post. Unfounded. Presumptuous. Made without any proof.
You still don't understand and think I've offered no proof.

:shrug:

Just so you know, I consider this matter "finished" because I know that you're not going to be able to follow the conversation. At this point, I'm not sure that you are intellectually capable of understanding how you are wrong here, because this matter intersects too closely with your delusions concerning your attainments. You've shown no ability to follow any conversation we've had together thus far where the issue at question is your supposed attainments and various mistakes you make when claiming them that put you at odds with the Dharma.

You think I've given no proof. That means you are having difficulty reading.

You have given absolutely no proof that the sutta you keep misinterpreting is about saññavedayitanirodha. You just go "Look at it boys!" Well, people have looked and they are not impressed.

The biggest issue is that you think you're unchallenged and that no one has provided evidence contrary to your claims. They have. You clearly didn't understand or didn't read it.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Fri Jul 30, 2021 2:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by Coëmgenu »

Pondera wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 3:09 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:04 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:11 am AN 11.7 is describing the saint in yogic equipoise, cognizing Nibbāna, just like AN 10.7. As Ven Sāriputta says, "bhavanirodho nibbānaṃ." But what you think the sutta is talking about is fundamentally flawed. The sutta you've cited has not been "without fail" because it is not talking about saññāvedayitanirodha. It has sañña present. This really isn't that hard.
Saves me saying it, again. Thanks.
Yet AN 11.8 (where awareness is present in Nirodha) is quite obviously Nirodha Samapatti
Could it be, sir, that a mendicant might gain a state of immersion like this. They wouldn’t be aware of the eye or sights, ear or sounds, nose or smells, tongue or tastes, or body or touches. …
…Yet they would be aware?”

“It could be, Ānanda.”
So, 🤷 the protege and the master are hooped.

Eel wriggle your way out, if you can.
I had an example explaining how the Heart Sūtra doesn't say what you think it does when you "goodpost" it, but this one is better and involves less digression into Mahāyāna Buddhism.

It seems like you think you've offered proof that these various suttas are talking about saññavedayitanirodha. You actually offered no proof. As typical, the only proof you've given is your mistaken attainments. When you can't distinguish proof from non-proof, it's not surprising to me that you also can't follow this thread.

The only proof you've given as "I've experienced it" and "Look at this sutta that I've decided matches my experience" (my wording, not yours). Then, because you decide it matches your experience, you conclude that it is talking about your experience. Do you see the problem here? Can you?
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Pondera
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by Pondera »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 2:19 pm
Pondera wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 3:09 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:04 am

Saves me saying it, again. Thanks.
Yet AN 11.8 (where awareness is present in Nirodha) is quite obviously Nirodha Samapatti
Could it be, sir, that a mendicant might gain a state of immersion like this. They wouldn’t be aware of the eye or sights, ear or sounds, nose or smells, tongue or tastes, or body or touches. …
…Yet they would be aware?”

“It could be, Ānanda.”
So, 🤷 the protege and the master are hooped.

Eel wriggle your way out, if you can.
I had an example explaining how the Heart Sūtra doesn't say what you think it does when you "goodpost" it, but this one is better and involves less digression into Mahāyāna Buddhism.

It seems like you think you've offered proof that these various suttas are talking about saññavedayitanirodha. You actually offered no proof. As typical, the only proof you've given is your mistaken attainments. When you can't distinguish proof from non-proof, it's not surprising to me that you also can't follow this thread.

The only proof you've given as "I've experienced it" and "Look at this sutta that I've decided matches my experience" (my wording, not yours). Then, because you decide it matches your experience, you conclude that it is talking about your experience. Do you see the problem here? Can you?
I’m not talking about attainments. You’re hung up on that. It grinds your gears. I know. Forget about that for the moment. Look at the following sutta.
“Could it be, sir, that a mendicant might gain a state of immersion like this. They wouldn’t be aware of the eye or sights, ear or sounds, nose or smells, tongue or tastes, or body or touches. They wouldn’t be aware of earth in earth, water in water, fire in fire, or air in air. And they wouldn’t be aware of the dimension of infinite space in the dimension of infinite space, the dimension of infinite consciousness in the dimension of infinite consciousness, the dimension of nothingness in the dimension of nothingness, or the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. They wouldn’t be aware of this world in this world, or the other world in the other world. And they wouldn’t be aware of what is seen, heard, thought, known, attained, sought, or explored by the mind. Yet they would be aware?”

“It could be, Ānanda.”
AN 11.8

There is awareness in Nirodha Samapatti. End of story. Any other view contradicts Buddha Dhamma.

Forget about so called attainments. One does not need attainments to see the simple logic of the above sutta.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by Coëmgenu »

Sweet Buddha preserve us.

That's not about saññāvedayitanirodha. Nothing in it says it's about saññavedayitanirodha. There is no reason for you to believe it is about saññavedayitanirodha. The only reason you think that is because you think that it lines up with some experience that you had. Once again, you principally argue from attainment. This isn't something I'm hung up on. It's something you perennially do. While it doesn't grind my gears, it does prevent me from taking you seriously. Don't gaslight me. Thank you.

What does get my gears a little ground is that you've decided this sutta talks about saññavedayitanirodha for no reason and are doubling down on this mistake while pretending you have a clue what you're talking about. That might grind a bit.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Mr Albatross
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by Mr Albatross »

Pondera wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:37 pm AN 11.8

There is awareness in Nirodha Samapatti. End of story. Any other view contradicts Buddha Dhamma.

Forget about so called attainments. One does not need attainments to see the simple logic of the above sutta.
This sutta isn't enough to prove your point. The second part of it that you didn't quote shows that the Buddha is talking about the attainment of nibbana:

"But how, Bhante, could he obtain such a state of concentration?"

"Here, Ānanda, a bhikkhu would attend thus: ‘This is peaceful, this is sublime, that is, the stilling of all activities, the relinquishing of all acquisitions, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, nibbāna."

"Simple logic" requires that to prove your point you need to show a sutta that teaches that the attainment of nibbana and the attainment of the cessation of feeling and perception are one and the same.
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by Coëmgenu »

So I think I figured out what you are on about, Pondera, but it was rather difficult and you certainly didn't make it easy with the way you presented your interpretation as self-evident. I kept thinking, "Why the naraku would he think this is saññavedayitanirodha?" and looking up various stances on it.

Apparently, in Theravāda, the term "bhavanirodha" is often synonymous with "saññavedayitanirodha." This seems to be a "quirk" of Theravāda as a sectarian tradition. There are actually two bhavanirodhas, if we give this to the Theravādins to consider them synonyms. One bhavanirodha is temporary complete nonexistence. This is saññavedayitanirodha. The other is "the cessation of (future) birth" which occurs as a consequence of "touching Nirvāṇa" as well as coinciding with the touch. It is what happens when Āryans proclaim "Birth is ended," etc. This is the bhavanirodha that Ven Sāriputta identifies as Nibbāna.

So I'll have to apologize. The matter is actually more ambiguous than I was aware of. You do have a reason to think the sutta talks about saññavedayitanirodha. I don't agree that it does. The principle issue is that saññavedayitanirodha is a foretaste of Parinibbāna, according as far as I can see to the Theravādin mainstream, which is without the body and mind, and not of Nibbāna, which is experienced with a body and mind. It's an issue of confusion over the two nibbānadhātus.

I'll assume that you are familiar with the two nibbānadhātus. There is a famous sutta called the Nibbānadhātusutta, Iti 44, that deals with them if anyone is unfamiliar.

I didn't know that Theravāda also called saññavedayitanirodha "bhavanirodha."
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Pondera
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by Pondera »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 1:02 am So I think I figured out what you are on about, Pondera, but it was rather difficult and you certainly didn't make it easy with the way you presented your interpretation as self-evident. I kept thinking, "Why the naraku would he think this is saññavedayitanirodha?" and looking up various stances on it.

Apparently, in Theravāda, the term "bhavanirodha" is often synonymous with "saññavedayitanirodha." This seems to be a "quirk" of Theravāda as a sectarian tradition. There are actually two bhavanirodhas, if we give this to the Theravādins to consider them synonyms. One bhavanirodha is temporary complete nonexistence. This is saññavedayitanirodha. The other is "the cessation of (future) birth" which occurs as a consequence of "touching Nirvāṇa" as well as coinciding with the touch. It is what happens when Āryans proclaim "Birth is ended," etc. This is the bhavanirodha that Ven Sāriputta identifies as Nibbāna.

So I'll have to apologize. The matter is actually more ambiguous than I was aware of. You do have a reason to think the sutta talks about saññavedayitanirodha. I don't agree that it does. The principle issue is that saññavedayitanirodha is a foretaste of Parinibbāna, according as far as I can see to the Theravādin mainstream, which is without the body and mind, and not of Nibbāna, which is experienced with a body and mind. It's an issue of confusion over the two nibbānadhātus.

I'll assume that you are familiar with the two nibbānadhātus. There is a famous sutta called the Nibbānadhātusutta, Iti 44, that deals with them if anyone is unfamiliar.

I didn't know that Theravāda also called saññavedayitanirodha "bhavanirodha."
Well. I’m certainly impressed that you dug as deep as you did.

I’m personally no longer interested in arguing this point. I have nothing to prove, and no one to prove it to. And if life has taught me anything, it is that people will cling to their own views very tightly (my self included).

I don’t see the dhamma as a kind of mathematics that needs logic and proof. The Buddha has singled logic out as not pertaining to the profound and sublime understanding of the Dhamma.

Which isn’t an attempt to knock on your interpretation of the Dhamma. Simply to say, at some point we just have to agree to disagree. I have no skin in the game. It is a fortunate quality of having cultivated disenchantment.

I’m personally satisfied with my meditation routine. Anyone who views my illustrations will note, if nothing else, that there is a method to my madness.
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atipattoh
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by atipattoh »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 1:02 am
:goodpost:
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by Coëmgenu »

Pondera wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 2:17 amI’m personally no longer interested in arguing this point. I have nothing to prove, and no one to prove it to. And if life has taught me anything, it is that people will cling to their own views very tightly (my self included).

I don’t see the dhamma as a kind of mathematics that needs logic and proof.
Groovy, man. In the future, I would also advise to speculate as to your interlocutor's motivations less or ideally not at all. Half of this conversation was "Ack! You and 'Other C!'" Also, I'm glad that you found out halfway through this conversation that I was younger than you. It was an interesting gaffe when you thought I was a very elderly man potentially older than you, which I do believe you thought I was at one point. How will you dissuade me of this belief? "People will cling to their own views very tightly (my self included)," so I guess we're all human.

:jedi: :heart:

I'll change my username to "Kevin" if I have to, all in the name of ending the fake news Alliance of the Two "C" Towers that various Drama-Wheelers now believe in.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Sat Jul 31, 2021 1:02 pm, edited 3 times in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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