Cessation of Feeling and Perception

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Jack19990101
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by Jack19990101 »

dicsoncandra wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:01 pm Could the samādhi that is the cessation of feeling and perception not mean literally but rather due to disowning these two aggregates through the cessation of contact (phassa) (that is born out of ignorance (avijja))? This would pertain to the direct experience of anatta and make a lot of sense considering that only the anagami and arahant could practice this form of meditation as they are the only ones free from sensuality.

From my understanding, it is the literal meaning of cessation of feeling and perception.
It is an attainment beyond Kama Loka which is the reason only anagami and arahat can see to it.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by Coëmgenu »

Pondera wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:25 amYou are confounding regular sanna with extra perceptual sanna.
"Extra-perceptual sañña?" Asañña sañña? The mind is already your "sixth sense." You are positing a "seventh sense" that is "extra-perception." This is beyond ridiculous, that you claim to lecture me on attainments and the suttas.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Pondera
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by Pondera »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:29 am
Pondera wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:25 amYou are confounding regular sanna with extra perceptual sanna.
"Extra-perceptual sañña?" Asañña sañña? The mind is already your "sixth sense." You are positing a "seventh sense" that is "extra-perception." This is beyond ridiculous, that you claim to lecture me on attainments and the suttas.
Then how do you define perception and awareness in Nirodha? Is it born of sight? Smell? Taste? Touch? Sound? Mind?

It is a “finer” and more “subtle” form of of perception and awareness. I have not posited a “new perception”. You straw man me.

By extra-perceptual I mean a supramundane form of perception and awareness. Again, if you think it belongs to the six senses - please indicate which.

This is not your battle to fight, young man. If Ceisiwr simply admits that perception and awareness exist in Nirodha then I will stop debating.

However, since he follows the abhidamma he won’t even allow for conscious experience in the first Jhana.

That is the laughable part. You and your cohorts cannot come to terms with a conscious experience in Nirodha.

Even though it has been called “pabhassara citta” you deny experiential awareness in Nirodha.

You are forgiven, of course. You are only speculating and pontificating. You have no direct experience of the thing. In all likelihood, you will not experience it in your life time. But don’t let that stop you from labouring on and on about it - making utter fools of your selves.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by Coëmgenu »

Pondera wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:42 amIt is a “finer” and more “subtle” form of of perception and awareness. I have not posited a “new perception”. You straw man me.
Fine then. I'll apologize if I've misunderstood. Now, you're back to claiming that sañña does not cease in saññavedayitanirodha.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Pondera
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by Pondera »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:46 am
Pondera wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:42 amIt is a “finer” and more “subtle” form of of perception and awareness. I have not posited a “new perception”. You straw man me.
Fine then. I'll apologize if I've misunderstood. Now, you're back to claiming that sañña does not cease in saññavedayitanirodha.
Come on, man? AN 11.7 “Sannasutta”? What more can be said?
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by Coëmgenu »

At the opening of AN 10.7, Venerable Ānanda asks Venerable Sāriputta,
Could it be, reverend Sāriputta, that a mendicant might gain a state of immersion like this?
He then describes a samādhi, very rarified, and concludes:
[...] and yet they would still perceive.
If he wanted to ask about saññavedayitanirodha, that was a very poor way to do so. Ven Ānanda would have just asked Ven Sāriputta, the Buddha for that matter, "Could it be that a mendicant might gain a state of immersion corresponding to saññavedayitanirodha?" The matter is largely the same in AN 11.7.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Pondera
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by Pondera »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:58 am At the opening of AN 10.7, Venerable Ānanda asks Venerable Sāriputta,
Could it be, reverend Sāriputta, that a mendicant might gain a state of immersion like this?
He then describes a samādhi, very rarified, and concludes:
[...] and yet they would still perceive.
If he wanted to ask about saññavedayitanirodha, that was a very poor way to do so. The matter is largely the same in AN 11.7.
Life’s too short, Coëmgenu. I’m not here to split hairs with you.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by Coëmgenu »

You don't have to talk to anyone that you don't want to talk to.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Pondera
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by Pondera »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:02 am You don't have to talk to anyone that you don't want to talk to.
It’s not always the “who”. It’s often the “what”.

I wouldn’t be here if I wasn’t up for a series of debates.

At the same time - I’m almost 40 years old. And you know what turning 40 means.

You’re just the right age not to give a shyte what other people think. But you’re not quite young enough anymore to hit the dance floor.

I enjoy our back and forths. But at some point I have to “let it go”. Some disagreements don’t arrive at a middle ground. I’m confident enough not to be liked or considered “right” by everyone.

Ie. I’m 40! I don’t care who’s right!!!!
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dicsoncandra
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by dicsoncandra »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:45 am
dicsoncandra wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:01 pm Could the samādhi that is the cessation of feeling and perception not mean literally but rather due to disowning these two aggregates through the cessation of contact (phassa) (that is born out of ignorance (avijja))? This would pertain to the direct experience of anatta and make a lot of sense considering that only the anagami and arahant could practice this form of meditation as they are the only ones free from sensuality.
Its difficult to watch a monk without mindfulness about the body fondling himself so I had to turn the video off.

However, to give my opinion on the question:

1. Cessation of feeling and perception is obviously a type of samatha because it occurs after the immaterial spheres, which each are gradual reductions of sense experience. Thus cessation of feeling and perception is an unconscious state because MN 43 says consciousness, feeling & perception are "cojoined", meaning one cannot arise without the others. Also, MN 43 compares the cessation of feeling and perception to a corpse; however the only difference between it and a corpse is it continues to have physical vitality, heat & physical sense organs.

2. The suttas (eg Iti 44) say an Arahant has feelings at sense contact therefore the cessation of contact (phassa) that is born out of ignorance (avijja) cannot be the same as cessation of feeling and perception. Also, the cessation of dependent origination is called "without remainder" (which is never used with cessation of feeling and perception).

3. In short, the two uses of cessation above appear to have different meanings.

4. None of the above appears related to sensuality. :smile:
Or instead of turning the video off you could have just looked away? :D makes a great opportunity to practice mindfulness for oneself

1. I've read that but was just wondering if the contemporary view has misinterpreted what it could be describing... since I found no basis for that suspicion, this could be ignored :D

2-4. Got it, thanks for your input!

:anjali:
arising is manifest;
ceasing is manifest;
change-while-standing is manifest.

Link to website: http://dicsonstable.blog/
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by Coëmgenu »

From the Mahāvibhāṣa, something that might interest readers:
Question: Why do you make this treatise?

Answer: Because we declare our own theory, denying that of the other schools.

The Dārṣṭāntikas (響喩者) and the Vibhajyavādins (分別論師) assert that a subtle mind (細心) is not annihilated in nirodhasamāpatti. They say that there are not any sentient beings (sattva) without rūpa, and that there is neither any samāpatti without mind (acittaka). [They say that] If the samāpatti is acittaka, the vital organ (jīvitendriya) will be eradicated; such a state is not a samāpatti, but death. On account of denying their assertion, we declare that there is not a mind at all in nirodhasamāpatti.

A certain, though admitting acittaka, asserts that nirodhasamāpatti appears only free from the defilement of rūpadhātu because it belongs to the same dhātu as the arūpyasamāpattis. On account of denying this assertion, we declare that nirodhasamāpatti always appears free from defilement of ākiṁcanyāyatana because it has the mind of naivasaṁjñānāsaṁjñāyatana as its samantarapratyaya (condition being immediately antecedent).

Therefore, Sthavira Vasumitra says: "What is nirodhasamāpatti? What, one having been free from defilement of ākiṁcanyāyatana, his mind and mental activities are annihilated (cittacaittānāṁ dharmāṇāṁ nirodhaḥ) by the mental orientation preceded by the conception of tranquility (śāntavihārasaṁjñāpūrvakeṇa manasikāreṇa) -- that is called nirodhasamāpatti."

On account of these reasons, we make this treatise.
(T1545.774a Mahāvibhāṣa quoted by Noriaki Hakamaya in Nirodhasamāpatti: Its Historical Meaning in the Vijñaptimātratā System, p. 36-37, translation from de la Vallée-Poussin L'Abhidharmakośa de Vasubandhu Tome 1, p. 212)

For readability: Dārṣṭāntikas are another name for Sautrāntikas or "Sūtra-ists," a subsect of the Sarvāstivādins. The citation of Abhidharmakośa that Hakamaya uses is from the original French translation. In Prüden's English translation, it appears in Vol. 1, p. 346, at footnote 257.

This came up in another thread...
circuit wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 3:11 amis it true that Srilanka Theravada 100% same as Vibhajjavada?
This also incidentally substantiates that the insular and continental Vibhajyavādins were distinct at least with regard to teachings concerning the arūpyadhātu. AFAIK, Theravāda takes the stance that beings of the arūpyadhātu have no rūpa.

The "subtle mind" (細心 xì xīn, sūkṣmacitta) that the Mahāvibhāṣa speaks of above is identified by Hakamaya as the bhavāṇgacitta.

According to Theravāda, is there the functioning of the bhavāṇgacitta in saññavedayitanirodha? My entire participation in the thread thus far has been under the assumption that there is not.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:33 am Your descriptions of your attainments are contrary to the Buddhadharma and I've no reason to believe in them.
:goodpost:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by Coëmgenu »

Venerable Bodhi comments on AN 10.7. I found this from Mikenz66 here:
“But of what was the Venerable Sāriputta percipient on that occasion?”

“One perception arose and another perception ceased in me: ‘The cessation of existence is nibbāna; the cessation of existence is nibbāna.’ [1970] Just as, when a fire of twigs is burning, one flame arises and another flame ceases, so one perception arose and another perception ceased in me: ‘The cessation of existence is nibbāna; the cessation of existence is nibbāna.’ On that occasion, friend, I was percipient: ‘The cessation of existence is nibbāna.’”

Footnote 1970:
Bhavanirodho nibbānaṃ bhavanirodhaṃ nibbānaṃ. Mp paraphrases thus: “‘On that occasion, friend, I was percipient with the perception of fruition attainment.’ Reviewing knowledge (paccavekkhaṇā) is discussed to show that this attainment was accompanied by mind.” In other words, because perception was present, this was not “the cessation of perception and feeling” (saññāvedayitanirodha).
"Mp" is clearly an abbreviation for a Pāli text. Does anyone know which? If someone has a hardcopy, they can check.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
pegembara
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by pegembara »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:08 am
pegembara wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:57 am Sankhara can be active or passive.
I doubt there is any sutta support for the above idea. What is the Pali for "active" & "passive"? Thanks
pegembara wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:57 amVerbal fabrication is active mental state as the mind fabricates thoughts, ideas, fantasies etc.
Sankhara above does not appear to be mean "fabrication". You appear to be creating your own ideology.
pegembara wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:57 amThen one may or may not actually break out in speech.
Irrelevant.
pegembara wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:57 amFeeling and perception on the other hand is a passive mental state.
Again, sounds like inventing ideology.

What's the Pali word for psychosis or anxiety-depression? What's the sutta support for these ideas. :sage:
BTW, no one creates their own ideology, It is always based on what came before.
"These three fabrications, friend Visakha: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, & mental fabrications."

12. Kati panayye saṅkhārāti?

Tayome āvuso visākha saṅkhārā: kāyasaṅkhāro vacīsaṅkhāro cittasaṅkhāroti.

"In-&-out breaths are bodily; these are things tied up with the body. That's why in-&-out breaths are bodily fabrications. Having first directed one's thoughts and made an evaluation, one then breaks out into speech. That's why directed thought & evaluation are verbal fabrications. Perceptions & feelings are mental; these are things tied up with the mind. That's why perceptions & feelings are mental fabrications."
Surely speaking out is active while just feeling is passive.
Breathing can be forced(active) or merely observed without interfering(passive).


That was one of the Buddha’s most important insights: that even when you’re sitting perfectly still with the intention not to do anything, there’s still the intention, and the intention itself is a doing. It’s a sankhara, a fabrication. It’s what we live with all the time. In fact, all of our experience is based on fabrication. The fact that you sense your body, feelings, perceptions, thought-constructs, consciousness—all of these aggregates: To be able to experience them in the present moment you have to fabricate a potential into an actual aggregate. You fabricate the potential for form into an actual experience of form, the potential for feeling into an actual experience of feeling, and so on.

The Buddha said discernment involves comprehending the process of fabrication, the process of action that’s going on in the mind all the time. And all the basic building blocks of action are right here. There’s the physical fabrication that leads to action—in other words, the breath. Without the breath you couldn’t do any other physical actions at all. Then there’s verbal fabrication: directed thought and evaluation. Without those you wouldn’t be able to speak.

And then there’s mental fabrication: perceptions and feelings. Without those, the process of mental fabrication wouldn’t have any building blocks to build with. These are all the most basic forms of activity: physical, verbal, and mental.

Thanissaro

https://mettarefuge.wordpress.com/2011/ ... it-matter/
Last edited by pegembara on Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Cessation of Feeling and Perception

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pondera wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:39 pm
Because you think mindfulness must imply a self
I’ve never said anything of the sort. Please stop spreading falsehoods about me.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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