Rest in peace

[asahi]

Is it proper for buddhist to express the condolonce utterance that a dead person rest in peace ? Does phrase of RIP belongs to other religion usage related to notion of resurrection ? What are general phrase for condolences in buddhism ?

[chownah]

This is the closeset thing to a condolence that I can think of:
IN thailand when someone dies they have monks come and do the funerary activities.....they always have four things to say about the deceased:
1. Gone and will not return
2. Sleep but will not wake up
3. Will not recover (or maybe "can not recover")
4. Death is inevitable (or maybe "can not excape death)

These are how I understand what they say but it might not be exactly correct.
chownah

[Cause_and_Effect]

Is it proper for buddhist to express the condolonce utterance that a dead person rest in peace ? Does phrase of RIP belongs to other religion usage related to notion of resurrection ? What are general phrase for condolences in buddhism ?

Technically only the Arahant rests in peace, as per the saying

"Absorbed in meditation, persevering,
Always steadfast,
The wise touch Nibbana,
The ultimate rest from toil."

Dhammapada verse 23

Perhaps "may he fare on well" would be appropriate. But it is also cultural and situational. Within a western culture and the one life or one resurection model, RIP is the normal parlance.
'May he be at peace' could perhaps be another alternative.

[DooDoot]

Perhaps "may he fare on well" would be appropriate. But it is also cultural and situational. Within a western culture and the one life or one resurection model, RIP is the normal parlance.

Its appears both views above are examples of 'eternalism'.

[asahi]

Here is an example that probably may be appropriate for buddhist to consider when a person departed from this world .

May s/he has a good rebirth .
May s/he aspire for noble attaintment .

I think a good rebirth in Pali is sugati-gati ?

[atipattoh]

In Iti 83. The Five Prognostic Signs. A deva said this to another deva that is dying, encourage him in three things with the words:

Go from here, friend, to a good bourn. Having gone to a good bourn, gain that which is good to gain. Having gained that which is good to gain, become firmly established in it.

So it seems, for human, can do with slight changes

Come back again, friend, to a good bourn. Having come back to a good bourn, gain that which is good to gain. Having gained that which is good to gain, become firmly established in faith, unsurpassed in the true Dhamma.

To express anything at all to a dead person, is pretty much meaningless.

Condolences to the living ones, is a different thing. To a Christian family, i don't feel awkward to say "may he RIP".

[asahi]

In Iti 83. The Five Prognostic Signs. A deva said this to another deva that is dying, encourage him in three things with the words:

Go from here, friend, to a good bourn. Having gone to a good bourn, gain that which is good to gain. Having gained that which is good to gain, become firmly established in it.

So it seems, for human, can do with slight changes

Come back again, friend, to a good bourn. Having come back to a good bourn, gain that which is good to gain. Having gained that which is good to gain, become firmly established in faith, unsurpassed in the true Dhamma.

To express anything at all to a dead person, is pretty much meaningless.

Condolences to the living ones, is a different thing. To a Christian family, i don't feel awkward to say "may he RIP".

In that case , why do the buddhist monks doing chanting at the funeral ? The deceased wont receive any merits from the chanting ? We are the lay person whom maybe are relatives or friends that visits the deceased funeral , surely we have to express something to console the living persons or we dont ?
The chanting are meant for the living person to hear the dhamma ? In most cases or situation the deceased family whom might be a buddhist , or are not buddhist at all or maybe just labeling as mix buddhist , probably would expect visitors saying a few words .

[atipattoh]

In that case , why do the buddhist monks doing chanting at the funeral ? The deceased wont receive any merits from the chanting ?
The chanting are meant for the living person to hear the dhamma ?

You you assuming that this dead person is now a ghost that is lingering around that can hear you.
In this case, you can't do much, except his/her close one has good metta and can perform metta chant.

In most cases or situation the deceased family whom might be a buddhist , or are not buddhist at all or maybe just labeling as mix buddhist , probably would expect visitors saying a few words .

Afaik, they do expect a few words or a soft pat from good friend.

[asahi]

You you assuming that this dead person is now a ghost that is lingering around that can hear you.
In this case, you can't do much, except his/her close one has good metta and can perform metta chant.

According to many researches , newly dead persons auditory functioning probably not yet all together ceased to be immediately .
The dead body that are very stiffs , becomes soften down upon receiving the vibration of the chantings .

[atipattoh]

According to many researches , newly dead persons auditory functioning probably not yet all together ceased to be immediately .

When you attend a funeral, the dead person already died at least many hours later. So, he is already "perfectly":- dead!

The dead body that are very stiffs , becomes soften down upon receiving the vibration of the chantings .

Quite an imagination!

[mabw]

I don't know, some say transference of merit is a late teaching. I don't know what to believe anymore. In my case, when my father passed on, in addition to the funeral service (Buddhist, but not Theravada), I recited some Pali verses next to him. Whether he hears it, I know not. For me, funeral services are more for the living than the dead. I treat it as a time for me to reflect on impermanence. Because I have some background in Buddhism, I made the service meaningful to me. So concrete benefit is felt on my part in part from the contemplation. If there is such a thing as transference of merit, and my father receives it, then that'll be great. If there isn't, well, at least I learnt something from the whole experience. There is some point in rituals. I see it as a way of kinesthetic learning, another way to learn the teachings.

I was actually about to start a thread on this. So thank you for bringing this up.

[asahi]

When you attend a funeral, the dead person already died at least many hours later. So, he is already "perfectly":- dead!

Well , dead is not so accurate . It implies death of something whereas the body constantly in tranformation , alteration or changing . Disintegrating .
I wonder if "death" can be called perfect ?

[atipattoh]

Well , dead is not so accurate . It implies death of something whereas the body constantly in tranformation , alteration or changing . Disintegrating .
I wonder if "death" can be called perfect ?

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 105935.htm

"In the last hours before an expected natural death, many people enter a period of unresponsiveness," says study lead author Elizabeth Blundon, who was a PhD student in the department of psychology at the time of the study. "Our data shows that a dying brain can respond to sound, even in an unconscious state, up to the last hours of life."
...
The researchers monitored the brain's response to those tones using EEG and found that some dying patients responded similarly to the young, healthy controls -- even when they were hours away from death.

About stiffness.
https://australian.museum/about/history ... y-changes/

Rigor mortis refers to the state of a body after death, in which the muscles become stiff. It commences after around 3 hours, reaching maximum stiffness after 12 hours, and gradually dissipates until approximately 72 hours after death.

I thought you already know this, in your earlier post.
Anyway, it is beginning to go off track.

[asahi]

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 105935.htm

"In the last hours before an expected natural death, many people enter a period of unresponsiveness," says study lead author Elizabeth Blundon, who was a PhD student in the department of psychology at the time of the study. "Our data shows that a dying brain can respond to sound, even in an unconscious state, up to the last hours of life."
...
The researchers monitored the brain's response to those tones using EEG and found that some dying patients responded similarly to the young, healthy controls -- even when they were hours away from death.

About stiffness.
https://australian.museum/about/history ... y-changes/

Rigor mortis refers to the state of a body after death, in which the muscles become stiff. It commences after around 3 hours, reaching maximum stiffness after 12 hours, and gradually dissipates until approximately 72 hours after death.

I thought you already know this, in your earlier post.
Anyway, it is beginning to go off track.

Not only after 72 hours of death but after 5 or 6 days , the stiff body became soften down without interrupting the body upon receiving the energy of chanting .

Anyway ,

[circuit]

after medic states a person "dead" s/he still "hear" sounds for 7-20 minutes. in this window of time s/he still can be helped by reciting positive things (or chantings or words or sentences that "was favorited by the one who is dying") or remind him/her about good deeds s/he already done in his/her life so that s/he should be happy and could reborn to good rebirth.

after that window of time, funerary activities should be directed to people who still alive to remind them about the truths that already stated by The Buddha.

metta for all