Dhammapala (Dhamma protector-deity) in Theravada traditions

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thomaslaw
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Dhammapala (Dhamma protector-deity) in Theravada traditions

Post by thomaslaw »

In the Mahayana traditions it has the traditional beliefs of Dharmapala, i.e. a dharma protector-deity.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharmapala
It seems no such a idea or belief of Dhammapala found or developed in the Theravada traditions. But I could be wrong about this. Any advices? Thanks
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Aloka
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Re: Dhammapala (Dhamma protector-deity) in Theravada traditions

Post by Aloka »

thomaslaw wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:30 am In the Mahayana traditions it has the traditional beliefs of Dharmapala, i.e. a dharma protector-deity.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharmapala
It seems no such a idea or belief of Dhammapala found or developed in the Theravada traditions. But I could be wrong about this. Any advices? Thanks
If Theravada practitioners have strong practice and confidence in the Buddha's teachings, why would they need to believe in the protector deities of Vajrayana & Mahayana?

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thomaslaw
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Re: Dhammapala (Dhamma protector-deity) in Theravada traditions

Post by thomaslaw »

Aloka wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:49 am
If Theravada practitioners have strong practice and confidence in the Buddha's teachings, why would they need to believe in the protector deities of Tibetan Vajrayana?
I found in Thailand there are certain deities worshiped in temples, shops, houses/homes. Those deities may be relevant to Dhammapala in the Theravada tradition (s).
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Re: Dhammapala (Dhamma protector-deity) in Theravada traditions

Post by asahi »

thomaslaw wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:30 am In the Mahayana traditions it has the traditional beliefs of Dharmapala, i.e. a dharma protector-deity.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharmapala
It seems no such a idea or belief of Dhammapala found or developed in the Theravada traditions. But I could be wrong about this. Any advices? Thanks
In Theravada tradition probably would consider Lord Sakka as buddhism protector .
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Aloka
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Re: Dhammapala (Dhamma protector-deity) in Theravada traditions

Post by Aloka »

thomaslaw wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:56 am
Aloka wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:49 am
If Theravada practitioners have strong practice and confidence in the Buddha's teachings, why would they need to believe in the protector deities of Tibetan Vajrayana?
I found in Thailand there are certain deities worshiped in temples, shops, houses/homes. Those deities may be relevant to Dhammapala in the Theravada tradition (s).

188. Driven only by fear, do men go for refuge to many places — to hills, woods, groves, trees and shrines.

189. Such, indeed, is no safe refuge; such is not the refuge supreme. Not by resorting to such a refuge is one released from all suffering.

190-191. He who has gone for refuge to the Buddha, the Teaching and his Order, penetrates with transcendental wisdom the Four Noble Truths — suffering, the cause of suffering, the cessation of suffering, and the Noble Eightfold Path leading to the cessation of suffering.

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Re: Dhammapala (Dhamma protector-deity) in Theravada traditions

Post by dharmacorps »

The deities in Thailand you saw would probably be Hindu, from the Ramayana, or devas from the Jataka tales. Also there is Nat worship, which is more like appeasing ghosts, which is not Buddhism. Its a folk belief.
thomaslaw
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Re: Dhammapala (Dhamma protector-deity) in Theravada traditions

Post by thomaslaw »

So, I may have to conclude that no such a idea or belief of Dhammapala in the Theravada traditions.
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Re: Dhammapala (Dhamma protector-deity) in Theravada traditions

Post by 48vows »

thomaslaw wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:30 am So, I may have to conclude that no such a idea or belief of Dhammapala in the Theravada traditions.
Sure there is, TaoWessuwan is a popular one.

A bunch of nagas and yaksa are mentioned in some Pali sutras as protectors too, right ?
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Re: Dhammapala (Dhamma protector-deity) in Theravada traditions

Post by Mr Albatross »

dharmacorps wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:14 pm Also there is Nat worship, which is more like appeasing ghosts, which is not Buddhism. Its a folk belief.
This is true of 36 of the 37 nats, but not of Nat number 1. Nat number 1 is Thagyamin, which is the Burmese name for Sakka. He is certainly held by the Burmese to be a dhammapala of Theravada Buddhism. Thagyamin started his dhammapala work in the Buddha's lifetime when he appeared as the axe-holding yakkha Vajirapani, hovering over the heads of Ambattha and Saccaka to discourage their passive-aggressive debating tricks.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thagyamin

Thagyamin (Burmese: သိကြားမင်း, pronounced [ðədʑámɪ́ɴ]; from Sanskrit ၐကြ Śakra) is the highest-ranking nat (deity) in traditional Buddho-Burmese belief. Considered the king of Heaven.

Etymology

Thagyamin (သိကြားမင်း, English transliteration: Sikraah Mynn) is derived from the combination of the Sanskrit word ''शक्र'', "Shakra" (a synonym of Indra) and the Burmese word ''မင်း'' "Minn" (a common title meaning 'Lord'). He is also known by his nickname ''Oo Magha'' (ဦးမာဃ,lit. 'Mr. Magha') derived from his preexistential name.

Description

Thagyamin is often portrayed as holding a conch shell in one hand, and a yak-tail fly-whisk in the other, and seated or standing atop a three-headed white elephant (Airavata). He is described as the ruler of the celestial kingdom Trāyastriṃśa (တာဝတိံသာ).

He was designated as the supreme deity of the official pantheon of 37 atet nat (အထက်နတ်,upper deities) by King Anawrahta in the 11th century, in an effort to streamline animist practices among the populace and merge these practices with Theravada Buddhism. He is the only nat in the official pantheon not to have undergone a sudden and violent death, called a "green" or "raw" death (စိမ်းသေ).

According to Burmese traditional folklore, every year at the first day of Thingyan (the Burmese new year), Thagyamin visits the earth while being invisible. There, he observes every person: he records the names of good people in a golden book, and writes the names of evildoers in a book made of dog-skin leather. On the third day of Thingyan, he returns to heaven.
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Re: Dhammapala (Dhamma protector-deity) in Theravada traditions

Post by Coëmgenu »

I've heard that Nātha (the artist formerly known as Avalokiteśvara) is worshipped as a dharmapāla-type-thing in Sri Lanka. I'm not sure if he's considered a dharma-protector or a guardian deity of Sri Lanka itself, because I've heard both claimed.
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Re: Dhammapala (Dhamma protector-deity) in Theravada traditions

Post by frank k »

thomaslaw wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:30 am In the Mahayana traditions it has the traditional beliefs of Dharmapala, i.e. a dharma protector-deity.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharmapala
It seems no such a idea or belief of Dhammapala found or developed in the Theravada traditions. But I could be wrong about this. Any advices? Thanks
Dharma protectors (devas, and other beings more powerful than human) are a real thing.
There's not just a specific one . Just like there are some powerful humans of various creeds and religions, that tend to be very helpful to others, and they don't necessarily restrict their aid to only followers of a certain demographic.

I have heard some of the vajrayana protectors can be quite wrathful, even killing beings that are bothering the ones they're protecting.

in Theravada, AN 11.5 benefits of metta, devas protect you.

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Re: Dhammapala (Dhamma protector-deity) in Theravada traditions

Post by 48vows »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:56 pm I've heard that Nātha (the artist formerly known as Avalokiteśvara) is worshipped as a dharmapāla-type-thing in Sri Lanka. I'm not sure if he's considered a dharma-protector or a guardian deity of Sri Lanka itself, because I've heard both claimed.
In a place like that they would be the same thing
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Re: Dhammapala (Dhamma protector-deity) in Theravada traditions

Post by dharmacorps »

Mr Albatross wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:51 am
This is true of 36 of the 37 nats, but not of Nat number 1. Nat number 1 is Thagyamin, which is the Burmese name for Sakka. He is certainly held by the Burmese to be a dhammapala of Theravada Buddhism. Thagyamin started his dhammapala work in the Buddha's lifetime when he appeared as the axe-holding yakkha Vajirapani, hovering over the heads of Ambattha and Saccaka to discourage their passive-aggressive debating tricks.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thagyamin
This is still the category of folk-belief rather than dhamma though. Sakka exists in the Pali canon, but worshipping Sakka is not a part of what the Buddha taught. Important difference.
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Re: Dhammapala (Dhamma protector-deity) in Theravada traditions

Post by Mr Albatross »

dharmacorps wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:59 pm This is still the category of folk-belief rather than dhamma though. Sakka exists in the Pali canon, but worshipping Sakka is not a part of what the Buddha taught. Important difference.
I agree that the worship of dhammapalas is folk Buddhism. But the fact that certain devas and brahmas are dhammapalas is an orthodox Theravada position.
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Re: Dhammapala (Dhamma protector-deity) in Theravada traditions

Post by thomaslaw »

Mr Albatross wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:59 pm
dharmacorps wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:59 pm This is still the category of folk-belief rather than dhamma though. Sakka exists in the Pali canon, but worshipping Sakka is not a part of what the Buddha taught. Important difference.
I agree that the worship of dhammapalas is folk Buddhism. But the fact that certain devas and brahmas are dhammapalas is an orthodox Theravada position.
In Sagātha-vagga of SN (and also in its corresponding Chinese SA version), these non-human beings are mentioned in the individual Saṃyuttas: Devatā, Devaputta, Māra, Brahma, Vana, Yakkha, and Sakka, although they are not the core dhammas/teachings of the SN (SA) suttas.

It seems to correct to say that certain devas (including Vana, Yakkha) and Brahmas are able to be dhammapalas in the Theravada tradition(s). These indicate the Buddhist adaptation of general folk religious beliefs in the past and in today.
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