Dhammapala (Dhamma protector-deity) in Theravada traditions

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Mr Albatross
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Re: Dhammapala (Dhamma protector-deity) in Theravada traditions

Post by Mr Albatross »

thomaslaw wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 1:01 am These indicate the Buddhist adaptation of general folk religious beliefs in the past and in today.
It might indicate that. No doubt non-Buddhist academic scholars of Buddhism would prefer to assume that it did indicate that. On the other hand, it might indicate that certain devas, asuras, etc., really are dhammapalas. Now why would a practising Buddhist wish to take the side of sceptical academics on such a matter?

Personally I prefer to assume the opposite. For example, if I'm ever harassed by a yakkha I shall have no hesitation in summoning assistance from those devas who according to the Atanatiya Sutta have vowed to assist those of us who have gone for refuge to the Buddha. If that makes me a gullible fool in the eyes of non-Buddhist academic scholars of Buddhism, very well, I can live with it.
thomaslaw
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Re: Dhammapala (Dhamma protector-deity) in Theravada traditions

Post by thomaslaw »

Mr Albatross wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 2:01 am If that makes me a gullible fool in the eyes of non-Buddhist academic scholars of Buddhism, very well, I can live with it.
It certainly makes you feel good! :meditate:
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Kim OHara
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Re: Dhammapala (Dhamma protector-deity) in Theravada traditions

Post by Kim OHara »

Westerners' conceptions of 'Theravada' are a lot simpler and narrower than what happens, and has always happened, on the ground in traditionally Theravadin countries. The interpenetration of Buddhist, Hindu and local religious elements makes it really hard - and perhaps really silly - to try to be definite about what is or is not included in Theravada traditions.
See, for instance, this long-running thread on 'Tantric Theravada' viewtopic.php?f=16&t=10503. It is mostly about Thailand and Cambodia.

:namaste:
Kim
thomaslaw
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Re: Dhammapala (Dhamma protector-deity) in Theravada traditions

Post by thomaslaw »

Mr Albatross wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 2:01 am
For example, ... harassed by a yakkha I shall have no hesitation in summoning assistance from those devas who according to the Atanatiya Sutta have vowed to assist those of us who have gone for refuge to the Buddha.
Thanks for mentioning the Atanatiya Sutta. It brings my attention to it. The sutta is in fact taught by a Deva for protecting the followers of the Buddha. The content of the sutta looks like an expansion from the Sagatha Vagga of SN (SA).
Mr Albatross
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Re: Dhammapala (Dhamma protector-deity) in Theravada traditions

Post by Mr Albatross »

thomaslaw wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 12:46 am Thanks for mentioning the Atanatiya Sutta. It brings my attention to it. The sutta is in fact taught by a Deva for protecting the followers of the Buddha.
The verses are spoken by devas after receiving the Buddha's consent at the beginning of the sutta. Then at the end the verses get the Buddha's glowing endorsement:
“Learn the Āṭānāṭiya protection, monks, master the Āṭānāṭiya protection, monks, bear in mind the Āṭānāṭiya protection, monks, the Āṭānāṭiya protection, monks, is for your welfare and benefit, for the monks’, nuns’, laymen’s, and laywomen’s guard, protection, freedom from harm, and comfortable living.”

The Gracious One said this, and those monks were uplifted and greatly rejoiced in what was said by the Gracious One.
The content of the sutta looks like an expansion from the Sagatha Vagga of SN (SA).
How?

It doesn't look like it to me at all, for the Atanatiya Sutta doesn't have the deva and human interactive exchanges that distinguish the Sagatha Vagga. Also, since there isn't a single parallel verse in the A Sutta and the S Vagga, I doubt even non-Buddhist academic scholars would claim that the one was an expanded version of the other.
thomaslaw
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Re: Dhammapala (Dhamma protector-deity) in Theravada traditions

Post by thomaslaw »

Mr Albatross wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 3:50 am
thomaslaw wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 12:46 am
The content of the sutta looks like an expansion from the Sagatha Vagga of SN (SA).
How?

It doesn't look like it to me at all, for the Atanatiya Sutta doesn't have the deva and human interactive exchanges that distinguish the Sagatha Vagga. Also, since there isn't a single parallel verse in the A Sutta and the S Vagga, I doubt even non-Buddhist academic scholars would claim that the one was an expanded version of the other.
If you can read Chinese, you may read the following page to get some ideas:

p. 788 in Yin Shun, The Formation of Early Buddhist Texts 《原始佛教聖典之集成》https://cbetaonline.dila.edu.tw/zh/Y0033
Mr Albatross
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Re: Dhammapala (Dhamma protector-deity) in Theravada traditions

Post by Mr Albatross »

thomaslaw wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 5:07 am If you can read Chinese, you may read the following page to get some ideas:
I'm afraid that I can't read Chinese. If I could read it, what are the ideas that I might get?
thomaslaw
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Re: Dhammapala (Dhamma protector-deity) in Theravada traditions

Post by thomaslaw »

Mr Albatross wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:02 am
thomaslaw wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 5:07 am If you can read Chinese, you may read the following page to get some ideas:
I'm afraid that I can't read Chinese. If I could read it, what are the ideas that I might get?
The ideas are mainly about the three-anga structure of early Buddhist texts and SN/SA as historically being the foundation of the four Nikayas/Agamas in the formation of early Buddhist texts.

If needed, you may read the following works by Choong Mun-keat:

- In pp. 7-11, "2. Historical importance of SN/SA and of its Sutra-anga portion", in The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism: A Comparative Study Based on the Sūtrāṅga portion of the Pāli Saṃyutta-Nikāya and the Chinese Saṃyuktāgama (Series: Beitrage zur Indologie Band 32; Harrassowitz Verlag, Wiesbaden, 2000).

- “Ācāriya Buddhaghosa and Master Yinshun 印順 on the Three-aṅga Structure of Early Buddhist Texts”, in Research on the Saṃyukta-āgama (Dharma Drum Institute of Liberal Arts, Research Series 8; edited by Dhammadinnā), Taiwan: Dharma Drum Corporation, August 2020, pp. 883-932.
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