Are views form? Including the right view?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22405
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: Are views form? Including the right view?

Post by Ceisiwr »

AlexBrains92 wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:10 pm The 4NT are dhammas anyway. If not, what else?
They are dhammas, but not sabhava-dhammas as such in of themselves. That which makes up each truth is though.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8151
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Are views form? Including the right view?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Truths. Things that are true but do not constitute a single discrete dhamma, like Nirvāṇa according to many.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
User avatar
AlexBrains92
Posts: 1211
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:25 pm

Re: Are views form? Including the right view?

Post by AlexBrains92 »

AlexBrains92 wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:10 pm The Buddha himself called his teaching 'dhamma-vinaya'.

«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?

They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»


- Snp 4.5 -
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22405
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: Are views form? Including the right view?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:11 pm Truths. Things that are true but do not constitute a single discrete dhamma, like Nirvāṇa according to many.
Only discrete dhammas can be foundations for truth though.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
User avatar
AlexBrains92
Posts: 1211
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:25 pm

Re: Are views form? Including the right view?

Post by AlexBrains92 »

However, it's funny that on some things I agree with someone and not with someone else, and vice versa on others :rofl:

«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?

They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»


- Snp 4.5 -
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8151
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Are views form? Including the right view?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:13 pmOnly discrete dhammas can be foundations for truth though.
But you reject the ultimate truth of composite entities in general in the "All Exists" thread. Composite entities are not ultimately true, according to you, therefore it matters not if discrete dhammas are the foundation of a truth, because it will still be composite.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22405
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: Are views form? Including the right view?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:20 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:13 pmOnly discrete dhammas can be foundations for truth though.
But you reject the ultimate truth of composite entities in general in the "All Exists" thread. Composite entities are not ultimately true, according to you, therefore it matters not if discrete dhammas are the foundation of a truth, because it will still be composite.
You can’t have the concept of “3rd Noble Truth” without the reality behind it. Superimposition upon reality requires an ultimate reality.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8151
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Are views form? Including the right view?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:24 pmYou can’t have the concept of “3rd Noble Truth” without the reality behind it. Superimposition upon reality requires an ultimate reality.
This only holds if "being a particular and discrete dhamma" is the only way that something can be real and/or true.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22405
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: Are views form? Including the right view?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:25 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:24 pmYou can’t have the concept of “3rd Noble Truth” without the reality behind it. Superimposition upon reality requires an ultimate reality.
This only holds if "being a particular and discrete dhamma" is the only way that something can be real and/or true.
Without a mind there can be no superimposition of concepts. A concept can only be known if there is a mind, so an ultimate reality (the dhammas of the mind) exist prior to the concept. If there is no reality to which concepts correspond then said concepts are untrue. If there is a reality to which they correspond then they are true. Without Nibbana as a real ultimate existent we can’t say the 3rd truth is always true (which it is).
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8151
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Are views form? Including the right view?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:28 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:25 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:24 pmYou can’t have the concept of “3rd Noble Truth” without the reality behind it. Superimposition upon reality requires an ultimate reality.
This only holds if "being a particular and discrete dhamma" is the only way that something can be real and/or true.
Without a mind there can be no superimposition of concepts. A concept can only be known if there is a mind, so an ultimate reality (the dhammas of the mind) exist prior to the concept. If there is no reality to which concepts correspond then said concepts are untrue. If there is a reality to which they correspond then they are true. Without Nibbana as a real ultimate existent we can’t say the 3rd truth is always true (which it is).
I think you need to unpack this. You identify that which interacts as a "concept," then an "ultimate reality," then a "dhamma of the mind." An ultimate reality must exist before a concept. Are you sure of that assertion? Then you say "then said concepts are untrue" if they've no (ultimate) reality corresponding to them. I thought that concepts were never ultimately true and never ultimately real according to your previous argumentation.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Post Reply