Are views form? Including the right view?

[asahi]

If Buddha n arahant still have dukkha thats mean they havent ends suffering yet !

[Ceisiwr]

If Buddha n arahant still have dukkha thats mean they havent ends suffering yet !

Of course. All dukkha ceases without remainder at the end of life, for them.

[asahi]

If Buddha n arahant still have dukkha thats mean they havent ends suffering yet !

Of course. Full cessation is at the end of life.

I mean when still alive , their suffering per noble truth where it means clinging is suffering already ends .

[Ceisiwr]

If Buddha n arahant still have dukkha thats mean they havent ends suffering yet !

Of course. Full cessation is at the end of life.

I mean when still alive , their suffering per noble truth where it means clinging is suffering already ends .

They no longer cling, but they still experience dukkha since pain is dukkha and conditioned dhammas are intrinsically dukkha. They cut of a lot of dukkha in the present, and cut off future dukkha (the aggregates) since craving is a condition for that future dukkha. This is why only at the end of life are they fully free from all dukkha.

[asahi]

They no longer cling, but they still experience dukkha since pain is dukkha and conditioned dhammas are intrinsically dukkha. They cut of a lot of dukkha in the present, and cut off future dukkha (the aggregates) since craving is a condition for that future dukkha. This is why only at the end of life are they fully free from all dukkha.

Suffering is due to defilement .
Physically body pains is not a Defilement per the Noble Truth .

[Ceisiwr]

They no longer cling, but they still experience dukkha since pain is dukkha and conditioned dhammas are intrinsically dukkha. They cut of a lot of dukkha in the present, and cut off future dukkha (the aggregates) since craving is a condition for that future dukkha. This is why only at the end of life are they fully free from all dukkha.

Suffering is due to defilement .
Physically body pains is not a Defilement per the Noble Truth .

Suffering can be the mental torment in the present of wailing and lamentation etc due to clinging, but it’s also pain and conditioned dhammas themselves. Craving is the condition for the aggregates in this life, which themselves are intrinsically dukkha. If the Buddha was totally free from all dukkha immediately upon awakening then he would be constantly in Nibbana. We know this was not the case. Rather Nibbana was something the Buddha returned to, so to speak, throughout life.

Regarding pain, it is dukkha in of itself.

“Mendicants, there are these three forms of suffering. What three? The suffering inherent in painful feeling; the suffering inherent in conditions; and the suffering inherent in perishing. These are the three forms of suffering.

The noble eightfold path should be developed for the direct knowledge, complete understanding, finishing, and giving up of these three forms of suffering.”

https://suttacentral.net/sn45.165/en/sujato

Pain is even in the definition of the 1st Noble Truth. Incidentally all of this falsifies the idea that Nibbana is the mere cessation of greed, hate and delusion.

[Ceisiwr]

But why is it suffering? Because it is the basis for many kinds of suffering.8 For there are many kinds of suffering, that is to say, intrinsic suffering (dukkha- dukkha),9 suffering in change (viparióáma-dukkha), and suffering due to formations (saòkhára-dukkha); and then concealed suffering, exposed suffering, indirect suffering, and direct suffering.

35. Herein, bodily and mental, painful feeling are called intrinsic suffering because of their individual essence, their name, and their painfulness. [Bodily and mental] pleasant feeling are called suffering in change because they are a cause for the arising of pain when they change (M I 303). Equanimous feeling and the remaining formations of the three planes are called suffering due to formations because they are oppressed by rise and fall. Such bodily and mental affliction as earache, toothache, fever born of lust, fever born of hate, etc., is called concealed suffering because it can only be known by questioning and because the infliction is not openly evident; it is also called “unevident suffering.” The affliction produced by the thirty-two tortures,10 etc., is called exposed suffering because it can be known without questioning and because the infliction is openly evident; it is also called “evident suffering.” Except intrinsic suffering, all given in the exposition of the truth of suffering [in the Vibhaòga] (Vibh 99) beginning with birth are also called indirect suffering because they are the basis for one kind of suffering or another. But intrinsic suffering is called direct suffering.

Visuddhimagga - CHAPTER XVI The Faculties and Truths

[asahi]

Suffering can be the mental torment in the present of wailing and lamentation etc due to clinging, but it’s also pain and conditioned dhammas themselves. Craving is the condition for the aggregates in this life, which themselves are intrinsically dukkha. If the Buddha was totally free from all dukkha immediately upon awakening then he would be constantly in Nibbana. We know this was not the case. Rather Nibbana was something the Buddha returned to, so to speak, throughout life.

Regarding pain, it is dukkha in of itself.

“Mendicants, there are these three forms of suffering. What three? The suffering inherent in painful feeling; the suffering inherent in conditions; and the suffering inherent in perishing. These are the three forms of suffering.

The noble eightfold path should be developed for the direct knowledge, complete understanding, finishing, and giving up of these three forms of suffering.”

https://suttacentral.net/sn45.165/en/sujato

Pain is even in the definition of the 1st Noble Truth. Incidentally all of this falsifies the idea that Nibbana is mere cessation of greed, hate and delusion.

2 things .
1. Definition of nibbana varies .
2. Bodily pains feeling if very minute , do you take it as suffering ? Pleasant feeling if there is clinging it may cause suffering arising otherwise not . Neutral feeling you are not even aware of it all the times . If you do , you would be 24/7/365 in suffering according to your explanation . Suffering arises in the mind . If there is a painful sensation and you are in jhana you can be detached from that feeling . It does not affect your mind . Attachment to it , is the suffering .

[Ceisiwr]

2 things .
1. Definition of nibbana varies .

And? There are a plethora of definitions due to a plethora of misunderstandings and understanding. Based on the suttas Nibbana is utterly devoid of all conditioned dhammas. How then can the Buddha walk around talking to people in this state? The answer is he didn’t. Only when “in” Nibbana, that is to say when meditating on it, was there a total (but not final) absence of dukkha. That only happened at the end of life, when the aggregates ceased without remainder.

2. Bodily pains feeling if very minute , do you take it as suffering ? Pleasant feeling if there is clinging it may cause suffering arising otherwise not . Neutral feeling you are not even aware of it all the times . If you do , you would be 24/7/365 in suffering according to your explanation . Suffering arises in the mind . If there is a painful sensation and you are in jhana you can be detached from that feeling . It does not affect your mind . Attachment to it , is the suffering .

All conditioned dhammas are dukkha. Pleasant vedana is dukkha. Pain is dukkha. Sound is dukkha. Smell is dukkha. Equanimity is dukkha. Seeing this way is Right View. Ultimately there is merely suffering and it’s absence (Nibbana) with the two being the complete opposites of each other.

[AlexBrains92]

All conditioned dhammas are dukkha. Pleasant vedana is dukkha. Pain is dukkha. Sound is dukkha. Smell is dukkha. Equanimity is dukkha. Seeing this way is Right View. Ultimately there is merely suffering and it’s absence (Nibbana) with the two being the complete opposites of each other.

Right View is dukkha, too. Isn't it?

[Coëmgenu]

Why would it be, out of curiosity?

[Coëmgenu]

Here's a non-Theravādin "right view" for you:

All dharmas are empty of their svabhāvas. "Svabhāvas" and "svalakṣaṇas" in general do not exist.

Is that view dukkha too?

[chownah]

They still experience unsatisfactory dhammas, and still experience pain. Pain is intrinsically dukkha. All conditioned dhammas are intrinsically dukkha. This is why any form of existence is dukkha. The pleasant vedana of Jhana is dukkha because it doesn’t last.

Whatever they experience they do not suffer from it since they have abandoned ignorance.
chownah

They still experience dukkha. They perception of all conditioned dhammas is that of them being anicca, dukkha and anatta.

Whatever they experience they do not suffer from it since they have abandoned ignorance. Regardless of whatever perceptions they might have their understanding of conditioned dhammas is through direct knowledge.
chownah

[chownah]

Suffering can be the mental torment in the present of wailing and lamentation etc due to clinging, but it’s also pain and conditioned dhammas themselves.

Suffering arises because of ignorance about conditioned dhammas. Buddhas and arahants have dispelled ignorance concerning conditioned dhammas so they do not suffer from them.
chownah

[chownah]

All conditioned dhammas are dukkha. Pleasant vedana is dukkha. Pain is dukkha. Sound is dukkha. Smell is dukkha. Equanimity is dukkha. Seeing this way is Right View. Ultimately there is merely suffering and it’s absence (Nibbana) with the two being the complete opposites of each other.

Right View is dukkha, too. Isn't it?

Right View is dukkha to the extent that it is conditioned.
chownah