Are views form? Including the right view?

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devaloka
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Are views form? Including the right view?

Post by devaloka »

Are views form? Including the right view? If so must any kimd of view including right view be abandoned?

:anjali:

Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found;
The deed is, but no doer of the deed is there;
Nibbàna is, but not the man who enters it;
The path is, but no traveler on it is seen
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Are views form? Including the right view?

Post by Ceisiwr »

devaloka wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 4:43 pm Are views form? Including the right view? If so must any kimd of view including right view be abandoned?

:anjali:
I don’t know what you mean by form? As to abandoning Right View, yes but that doesn’t mean not having Right View. The Buddha criticised certain views which were based on questionable epistemological grounds, rather than teaching that we should have no view at all. The Buddha wasn’t a sceptic. He was more of an empiricist. Two very different things.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
devaloka
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Re: Are views form? Including the right view?

Post by devaloka »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 4:47 pm
devaloka wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 4:43 pm Are views form? Including the right view? If so must any kimd of view including right view be abandoned?

:anjali:
I don’t know what you mean by form? As to abandoning Right View, yes but that doesn’t mean not having Right View. The Buddha criticised certain views which were based on questionable epistemological grounds, rather than teaching that we should have no view at all. The Buddha wasn’t a sceptic. He was more of an empiricist. Two very different things.
I meant the formation of mental constructs

https://encyclopediaofbuddhism.org/wiki ... ir%C5%ABpa


But your answer " abandon yes but you can still have righr view" helped me understand that right view is the correct understanding but one should not claim ownership of this understanding.

Much appreciated
:anjali:

Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found;
The deed is, but no doer of the deed is there;
Nibbàna is, but not the man who enters it;
The path is, but no traveler on it is seen
Alino
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Re: Are views form? Including the right view?

Post by Alino »

I am not sure that we can, or would, abandon Right View. Why? Because Right View gives us freedom (complete or partial), and freedom means less sufferings on account of being.

As a man who was a slave and became a master, will not abandon his position to return as a slave. In the same way one will never abandon a genuine Right View in order to live in ignorance of his own condition, that's why he's destiny is fixed toward Nibbana, complete freedom, and is called a Stream Enterer...

🙏
We don't live Samsara, Samsara is living us...

"Form, feelings, perceptions, formations, consciousness - don't care about us, we don't exist for them"
SarathW
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Re: Are views form? Including the right view?

Post by SarathW »

devaloka wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 4:43 pm Are views form? Including the right view? If so must any kimd of view including right view be abandoned?

:anjali:
Yes once you attain you discard all views even the right view.
However, this does not mean that when you attain Nibbana you have the wrong view.
When you see that the five clinging-aggregate as no I, not me and not myself there is nothing left to take as a view.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
circuit
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Re: Are views form? Including the right view?

Post by circuit »

view is not form.

body is form.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Are views form? Including the right view?

Post by Ceisiwr »

circuit wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:18 pm view is not form.

body is form.
Rupa can mean other things too. Visual forms for example, which are not the body.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
circuit
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Re: Are views form? Including the right view?

Post by circuit »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:32 pm
circuit wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:18 pm view is not form.

body is form.
Rupa can mean other things too. Visual forms for example, which are not the body.
Okay, thanks.
metta for all
chownah
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Re: Are views form? Including the right view?

Post by chownah »

I think that the buddha has given up views in preference to direct knowledge.
chownah
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AlexBrains92
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Re: Are views form? Including the right view?

Post by AlexBrains92 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 4:47 pm As to abandoning Right View, yes but that doesn’t mean not having Right View.
Hi Ceisiwr, can you define "having"?

«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?

They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»


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Ceisiwr
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Re: Are views form? Including the right view?

Post by Ceisiwr »

AlexBrains92 wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:43 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 4:47 pm As to abandoning Right View, yes but that doesn’t mean not having Right View.
Hi Ceisiwr, can you define "having"?
Exists in one's mind. So, seeing the world in line with Right View.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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AlexBrains92
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Re: Are views form? Including the right view?

Post by AlexBrains92 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:46 pm
AlexBrains92 wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:43 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 4:47 pm As to abandoning Right View, yes but that doesn’t mean not having Right View.
Hi Ceisiwr, can you define "having"?
Exists in one's mind. So, seeing the world in line with Right View.
So you think that a sotapanna, who has Right View, and an arahant see the world the same way?

«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?

They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»


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Ceisiwr
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Re: Are views form? Including the right view?

Post by Ceisiwr »

AlexBrains92 wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 1:08 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:46 pm
AlexBrains92 wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:43 pm
Hi Ceisiwr, can you define "having"?
Exists in one's mind. So, seeing the world in line with Right View.
So you think that a sotapanna, who has Right View, and an arahant see the world the same way?
Yes.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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AlexBrains92
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Re: Are views form? Including the right view?

Post by AlexBrains92 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 1:13 pm
AlexBrains92 wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 1:08 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:46 pm

Exists in one's mind. So, seeing the world in line with Right View.
So you think that a sotapanna, who has Right View, and an arahant see the world the same way?
Yes.
What about sotapanna's ignorance?

«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?

They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»


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Ceisiwr
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Re: Are views form? Including the right view?

Post by Ceisiwr »

AlexBrains92 wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 1:26 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 1:13 pm
AlexBrains92 wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 1:08 pm

So you think that a sotapanna, who has Right View, and an arahant see the world the same way?
Yes.
What about sotapanna's ignorance?
What about it? Both have the same view, but the Arahant has full knowledge whereas the sotāpanna does not. Both look at the world the same way, but the Arahant also truly knows that it is so. View and knowledge are two different, yet related, things.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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