Craving for Non-Existence is not really a bad thing…

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sakka
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Craving for Non-Existence is not really a bad thing…

Post by sakka »

Please remember, The Buddha was also a teacher of gods.

That being said do not think that craving for non-existence has to do with suicidal human beings… :anjali:

I think it has more to do with this, that the three cravings actually corresponds to Tiloka!

Craving for sensual pleasure = Kamaloka (This earth for humans but also all the various heavens with devas like Tāvatiṃsa)

Craving for existence = Rupaloka (Brahmas who only have a form like a ball of light but no desires) You reach this via the 4 Jhanas.

Craving for non-existence = Arupaloka! The 4 Arupa Jhanas… :)

The base of boundless space
The base of boundless consciousness
The base of nothingness
The base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception.

How else would a rebirth in the 4 Arupaloka realms be explained?
Craving for non-existence! :)

”Craving for Non-Existence is not really a bad thing…” Well for a Brahma or for beings in the arupa realms it might just be a bad thing, it is still a form of craving/being… ;) So the greatest teacher ever help them to reach Nibbana. :D
SarathW
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Re: Craving for Non-Existence is not really a bad thing…

Post by SarathW »

Craving for non-existence = Arupaloka! The 4 Arupa Jhanas… :)
Arupaloka is not non-existence as they still have space, consciousness, etc as the object.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
sakka
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Re: Craving for Non-Existence is not really a bad thing…

Post by sakka »

SarathW wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:02 pm
Craving for non-existence = Arupaloka! The 4 Arupa Jhanas… :)
Arupaloka is not non-existence as they still have space, consciousness, etc as the object.
Hmmm so which type of craving will lead me to rebirth in the arupa realms?
SarathW
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Re: Craving for Non-Existence is not really a bad thing…

Post by SarathW »

sakka wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:18 pm
SarathW wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:02 pm
Craving for non-existence = Arupaloka! The 4 Arupa Jhanas… :)
Arupaloka is not non-existence as they still have space, consciousness, etc as the object.
Hmmm so which type of craving will lead me to rebirth in the arupa realms?
Perhaps the craving for subtler experiences.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
sakka
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Re: Craving for Non-Existence is not really a bad thing…

Post by sakka »

SarathW wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:21 pm
sakka wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:18 pm
SarathW wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:02 pm
Arupaloka is not non-existence as they still have space, consciousness, etc as the object.
Hmmm so which type of craving will lead me to rebirth in the arupa realms?
Perhaps the craving for subtler experiences.
But the rupa jhanas are already in the suttas said to be very subtle… ;) If you had to answer with the three cravings The Buddha mention, which one? Sensual, Existence or Non-Existence? :)
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Craving for Non-Existence is not really a bad thing…

Post by Ceisiwr »

sakka wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:53 pm
That being said do not think that craving for non-existence has to do with suicidal human beings… :anjali:

I think it has more to do with this, that the three cravings actually corresponds to Tiloka!
When it comes to other ascetics the formless attainments are mostly tied to the annihilationists. Seems they thought they were a means to annihilate the self. DN 1 is an example sutta which shows this connection. In the end though they merely reappeared there, hence why they were reborn in said realms after death.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Craving for Non-Existence is not really a bad thing…

Post by Ceisiwr »

sakka wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:18 pm
SarathW wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:02 pm
Craving for non-existence = Arupaloka! The 4 Arupa Jhanas… :)
Arupaloka is not non-existence as they still have space, consciousness, etc as the object.
Hmmm so which type of craving will lead me to rebirth in the arupa realms?
Although it can be craving for more refined states of being, the suttas mostly frame said rebirth as stemming from aversion to existence with the delusional belief that there is a “you” and that peace is found in “you” ceasing to be. So, it can be either craving for being or non-being for you personally. This is assuming you will be able to enter said attainments.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
sakka
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Re: Craving for Non-Existence is not really a bad thing…

Post by sakka »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:34 pm
sakka wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:53 pm
That being said do not think that craving for non-existence has to do with suicidal human beings… :anjali:

I think it has more to do with this, that the three cravings actually corresponds to Tiloka!
When it comes to other ascetics the formless attainments are mostly tied to the annihilationists. Seems they thought they were a means to annihilate the self. DN 1 is an example sutta which shows this connection. In the end though they merely reappeared there, hence why they were reborn in said realms after death.
Annihilationism
“There are, monks, some contemplatives & brahmans who are annihilationists,23 who proclaim the annihilation, destruction, & non-becoming of an existing being [sant satta]24 on seven grounds. And with reference to what, coming from what, are these honorable contemplatives & brahmans annihilationists who proclaim the annihilation, destruction, & non-becoming of an existing being on seven grounds?
51. “There is the case where a certain contemplative or brahman is of this opinion, this view: ’When the self that is possessed of form, made of the four great elements,25 engendered by mother & father, is—with the breakup of the body—annihilated, destroyed, & does not exist after death, it’s to this extent that the self is completely exterminated.’ This is how some proclaim the annihilation, destruction, & non-becoming of an existing being.
52. “Another says to him, ‘There is, my good man, that self of which you speak. I don’t say that there’s not. But it’s not to that extent that the self is completely exterminated. There is another self—divine, possessed of form, on the sensual level, feeding on material food. You don’t know or see that, but I know it, I see it. When this self—with the breakup of the body—is annihilated, destroyed, & does not exist after death, it’s to this extent that the self is completely exterminated.’ This is how some proclaim the annihilation, destruction, & non-becoming of an existing being.
53. “Another says to him, ‘There is, my good man, that self of which you speak. I don’t say that there’s not. But it’s not to that extent that the self is completely exterminated. There is another self—divine, possessed of form,26 mind-made, complete in all its limbs, not destitute of any faculties. You don’t know or see that, but I know it, I see it. When this self—with the breakup of the body—is annihilated, destroyed, & does not exist after death, it’s to this extent that the self is completely exterminated.’ This is how some proclaim the annihilation, destruction, & non-becoming of an existing being.
54. “Another says to him, ‘There is, my good man, that self of which you speak. I don’t say that there’s not. But it’s not to that extent that the self is completely exterminated. There is another self where—with the complete transcending of perceptions of form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, and not heeding perceptions of diversity, (perceiving,) ‘Infinite space’—one enters & remains in the dimension of the infinitude of space.27 You don’t know or see that, but I know it, I see it. When this self—with the breakup of the body—is annihilated, destroyed, & does not exist after death, it’s to this extent that the self is completely exterminated.’
55. “Another says to him, ‘There is, my good man, that self of which you speak. I don’t say that there’s not. But it’s not to that extent that the self is completely exterminated. There is another self where—with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of space, (perceiving,) ‘Infinite consciousness’—one enters & remains in the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness. You don’t know or see that, but I know it, I see it. When this self—with the breakup of the body—is annihilated, destroyed, & does not exist after death, it’s to this extent that the self is completely exterminated.’ This is how some proclaim the annihilation, destruction, & non-becoming of an existing being.
56. “Another says to him, ‘There is, my good man, that self of which you speak. I don’t say that there’s not. But it’s not to that extent that the self is completely exterminated. There is another self where—with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, (perceiving,) ‘There is nothing’—one enters & remains in the dimension of nothingness.28 You don’t know or see that, but I know it, I see it. When this self—with the breakup of the body—is annihilated, destroyed, & does not exist after death, it’s to this extent that the self is completely exterminated.’ This is how some proclaim the annihilation, destruction, & non-becoming of an existing being.
57. “Another says to him, ‘There is, my good man, that self of which you speak. I don’t say that there’s not. But it’s not to that extent that the self is completely exterminated. There is another self where—with the complete transcending of the dimension of nothingness—one enters & remains in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. You don’t know or see that, but I know it, I see it. When this self—with the breakup of the body—is annihilated, destroyed, & does not exist after death, it’s to this extent that the self is completely exterminated.’ This is how some proclaim the annihilation, destruction, & non-becoming of an existing being.
“These, monks, are the contemplatives & brahmans who are annihilationists, who proclaim the annihilation, destruction, & non-becoming of an existing being on seven grounds. And whatever contemplatives & brahmans who are annihilationists who proclaim the annihilation, destruction, & non-becoming of an existing being, they all do so on one or another of these seven grounds. There is nothing outside of this.
“With regard to this, the Tathāgata discerns that ‘These standpoints, thus seized, thus grasped at, lead to such & such a destination, to such & such a state in the world beyond.’ That the Tathāgata discerns. And he discerns what is higher than that. And yet, discerning that, he does not grasp at it. And as he is not grasping at it, unbinding [nibbuti] is experienced right within. Knowing, as they have come to be, the origination, ending, allure, & drawbacks of feelings, along with the escape from feelings, the Tathāgata, monks—through lack of clinging/sustenance—is released.
“These, monks, are the dhammas—deep, hard to see, hard to realize, tranquil, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise—that the Tathāgata proclaims, having directly known & realized them for himself, and that those who, rightly speaking in praise of the Tathāgata in line with what is factual, would speak.
So there you go, craving for non-existence, leads to rebirth in arupaloka :)
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Craving for Non-Existence is not really a bad thing…

Post by Ceisiwr »

sakka wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:45 pm

So there you go, craving for non-existence, leads to rebirth in arupaloka :)
Yes, but there are a few sutta passages where ascetics who are clearly eternalists pursue these meditations too. Really these meditations are just normal mental states. What the suttas suggest is that entering them can be either from a place of wanting the self to exist or wanting the self to not exist. Possibly the same is true for the 4 jhanas too (the suttas themselves never actually call the formless attainments jhanas). The other option is to enter them wisely, with Right View.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
sakka
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Re: Craving for Non-Existence is not really a bad thing…

Post by sakka »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:42 pm
sakka wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:18 pm
SarathW wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:02 pm
Arupaloka is not non-existence as they still have space, consciousness, etc as the object.
Hmmm so which type of craving will lead me to rebirth in the arupa realms?
Although it can be craving for more refined states of being, the suttas mostly frame said rebirth as stemming from aversion to existence with the delusional belief that there is a “you” and that peace is found in “you” ceasing to be. So, it can be either craving for being or non-being for you personally. This is assuming you will be able to enter said attainments.
I just see it as Rupaloka being where there is no desires, above the sensual. When a Brahma makes a visit to Sakka Devaraja in the suttas the devas first see a ball of light that then changes its form to look more like the devas and then it flies away as a ball of light. The four arupa jhanas do not take away the self but craving for non-existence might have one end up with rebirth in the mentioned arupaloka.
sakka
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Re: Craving for Non-Existence is not really a bad thing…

Post by sakka »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:49 pm
sakka wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:45 pm

So there you go, craving for non-existence, leads to rebirth in arupaloka :)
Yes, but there are a few sutta passages where ascetics who are clearly eternalists pursue these meditations too. Really these meditations are just normal mental states. What the suttas suggest is that entering them can be either from a place of wanting the self to exist or wanting the self to not exist. Possibly the same is true for the 4 jhanas too (the suttas themselves never actually call the formless attainments jhanas). The other option is to enter them wisely, with Right View.
But that is why The Buddha is the best, because one can understand that some would actually crave to have an ”existence” or non-existence in infinite space, floating around with no body, some kind of perception and no thoughts/concepts or anything else distracting one… :)
SarathW
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Re: Craving for Non-Existence is not really a bad thing…

Post by SarathW »

sakka wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:26 pm
SarathW wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:21 pm
sakka wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:18 pm

Hmmm so which type of craving will lead me to rebirth in the arupa realms?
Perhaps the craving for subtler experiences.
But the rupa jhanas are already in the suttas said to be very subtle… ;) If you had to answer with the three cravings The Buddha mention, which one? Sensual, Existence or Non-Existence? :)
Arupa and Rupa realms both are a result of a craving for existence. (subtle rupa and mind)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
sakka
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Re: Craving for Non-Existence is not really a bad thing…

Post by sakka »

SarathW wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 11:18 pm
sakka wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:26 pm
SarathW wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:21 pm

Perhaps the craving for subtler experiences.
But the rupa jhanas are already in the suttas said to be very subtle… ;) If you had to answer with the three cravings The Buddha mention, which one? Sensual, Existence or Non-Existence? :)
Arupa and Rupa realms both are a result of a craving for existence. (subtle rupa and mind)
I can't see it that way, in Rupaloka there are forms but there is no desire (craving for existence), In the various heavens (craving for sensual) and in Arupaloka (the 4 arupa jhanas named in DN 1 - Annihilationism = Craving for non-existence.

It would be delusional for someone to crave rebirth in arupaloka NO MATTER ( pun intended ;) ) how wonderful it is there when one could instead attain Nibbana.
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Re: Craving for Non-Existence is not really a bad thing…

Post by devaloka »

Its not bad as motivation for walking the path

Its not bad in itself I think just like other craving aslong as there is no ownership of the craving

The problem is that the self cannot destroy the self. As the self seeks to feel relieved from existing it is in a way still a sensual desire [the relief] which engaging with the craving ironically reaults in perpetuation and excaserbation of existence and existing as there is volition. The self can allow the self to be diatuingished by setting the proper conditions. But it cannot be forced.

Its kinda like blowing hard wind into fire with the idea it will extinguish the fire. But it will only fuel the fire and spread out setting forrests ablaze. To exitinguish it one must let the fire extinguish on its own and set the conditions for the fire not spreading like isolating its oxygen source preventing further supply with perhaps a blanket [for us this is sensual restraint in our context] make it extinguish of itself.

To skillfully fullfill this desire is to stop feeding the fire with volition and understanding gaining insight of the nature of the fire instead reacting impulsively. Like a firemen learning about the mechanisms and get skilled in properly dealing with them. Some firemen tactics are counter intuitive like not opening doors and windows.

Then one must not take ownership and see the fire as self . As fire can not extinguish fire by itself




:anjali:

Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found;
The deed is, but no doer of the deed is there;
Nibbàna is, but not the man who enters it;
The path is, but no traveler on it is seen
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Re: Craving for Non-Existence is not really a bad thing…

Post by pegembara »

Desire leads to a craving for sense pleasures(kama tanha) and for existence(bhava tanha).
Aversion to painful feeling is the cause for craving for non-existence(vibhava tanha).

Note that there cannot be craving for painful feeling.

The root delusion is that of existence whether that existence is heavenly, earthly or hellish.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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