Is a sexual relationship with a legitimate partner not considered attachment (greed)?

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Cause_and_Effect
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Re: Is a sexual relationship with a legitimate partner not considered attachment (greed)?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

SDC wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:02 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:38 am Before giving up being a householder and enjoyment of sense objects, yes. That said, interestingly the suttas never say he had a son. I believe it's only in the Vinaya and commentaries. I think he likely was his son, but it's interesting to note.
Rahula makes the claim in Thag 4.8. Worth noting that others have alluded to being the Buddha’s offspring in Dhamma, however Rahula’s makes a clear distinction between his arahantship and being his son:

I am known as “Fortunate Rāhula”,
because I’m accomplished in both ways:
I am the son of the Buddha,
and I am seer of truths.


Pending, of course, you find the Thag or Thig worthy of consideration.
Ah, so there is sutta reference.
I did find it odd that something so well known could be merely construed from the commentaries.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
Cause_and_Effect
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Re: Is a sexual relationship with a legitimate partner not considered attachment (greed)?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

SDC wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:11 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:06 pm Yes I forgot it was there too. I had in mind the 4 Nikāyas. As I say, I think he was his son but it's interesting it's not in the main body of texts.
All in all it was meaningless to either of them. So there wasn’t much point talking about it. The Dhamma was what mattered. His former wife entered the order as well, and she and Rahula both became arahants.
As I understand it he made a wish to be the son of a Buddha so had the kamma to have it granted.

I am sure there is some symbolic significance in the Buddha having a child; as if affirming the world and then transcending it.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Is a sexual relationship with a legitimate partner not considered attachment (greed)?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:19 pm
SDC wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:02 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:38 am Before giving up being a householder and enjoyment of sense objects, yes. That said, interestingly the suttas never say he had a son. I believe it's only in the Vinaya and commentaries. I think he likely was his son, but it's interesting to note.
Rahula makes the claim in Thag 4.8. Worth noting that others have alluded to being the Buddha’s offspring in Dhamma, however Rahula’s makes a clear distinction between his arahantship and being his son:

I am known as “Fortunate Rāhula”,
because I’m accomplished in both ways:
I am the son of the Buddha,
and I am seer of truths.


Pending, of course, you find the Thag or Thig worthy of consideration.
Ah, so there is sutta reference.
I did find it odd that something so well known could be merely construed from the commentaries.
Nothing in the Nikāyas themselves. We only have this singular reference in the Theragatha. Apart from that it's in the Vinaya and the commentaries, but I find it perplexing as to why the Theras would invent the story. Doesn't make much sense to me.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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SDC
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Re: Is a sexual relationship with a legitimate partner not considered attachment (greed)?

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AN 4.159: “ This body comes into being through sexual intercourse. Sexual intercourse is to be abandoned. With regard to sexual intercourse, the Buddha declares the cutting off of the bridge.”

There’s no loophole. It is to be abandoned. If you don’t, you’re gonna cut yourself short. End of story. I’m married, so I too understand the need to find a way to make it okay, but it isn’t. Yeah, you can be a solid five precept follower and that virtue can take you a long way, but sexual activity cultivates sensuality and it is non-negotiable that sense restraint must be developed.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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SDC
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Re: Is a sexual relationship with a legitimate partner not considered attachment (greed)?

Post by SDC »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:24 pm Nothing in the Nikāyas themselves.
Thag is in a nikaya, just not one of the big four.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Is a sexual relationship with a legitimate partner not considered attachment (greed)?

Post by Ceisiwr »

There is an inverse relationship between indulging in sensual desire and sense objects, including having sex, and meditative practice. Namely, with Jhāna. The more you refrain, the easier it becomes to achieve said states. Likewise, the more you indulge the harder it is to achieve them if not near impossible.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Is a sexual relationship with a legitimate partner not considered attachment (greed)?

Post by Ceisiwr »

SDC wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:26 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:24 pm Nothing in the Nikāyas themselves.
Thag is in a nikaya, just not one of the big four.
Damn you're right. I'm off point today. Yes, the one that was most open to additions.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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SDC
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Re: Is a sexual relationship with a legitimate partner not considered attachment (greed)?

Post by SDC »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:30 pm I'm off point today.
Don’t fret, C. Between work and the kids, sometimes I’m too tired to write in complete sentences.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: Is a sexual relationship with a legitimate partner not considered attachment (greed)?

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Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:29 pm There is an inverse relationship between indulging in sensual desire and sense objects, including having sex, and meditative practice. Namely, with Jhāna. The more you refrain, the easier it becomes to achieve said states. Likewise, the more you indulge the harder it is to achieve them if not near impossible.
There is a sutta about some bhikkhus who begin to transgress in virtue and lose the jhanas. Devadatta too when he started turning on his cousin.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: Is a sexual relationship with a legitimate partner not considered attachment (greed)?

Post by justindesilva »

SDC wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:25 pm AN 4.159: “ This body comes into being through sexual intercourse. Sexual intercourse is to be abandoned. With regard to sexual intercourse, the Buddha declares the cutting off of the bridge.”

There’s no loophole. It is to be abandoned. If you don’t, you’re gonna cut yourself short. End of story. I’m married, so I too understand the need to find a way to make it okay, but it isn’t. Yeah, you can be a solid five precept follower and that virtue can take you a long way, but sexual activity cultivates sensuality and it is non-negotiable that sense restraint must be developed.
Sex was not a need for reproduction at the beginning (agganna sutta). Women came in to being with the development of greed. Hence sex is justified as women came in to society , but lord budda cautioned about limits in sexual intimacy in parabhava sutta and singalovada sutta. Paticca samuppada explains that it is clinging (upadana) to sensual greed which makes one indulge in continue.
Further it is not direct attachment to wife that one keeps to family life but many other duties towards children and perhaps elders.
Very often keeping away from sex with wife on understanding will mostly be beneficial for self and family development along with spiritual practise as brahmacari character in samsaric journey.
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Re: Is a sexual relationship with a legitimate partner not considered attachment (greed)?

Post by bodom »

SDC wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:25 pm AN 4.159: “ This body comes into being through sexual intercourse. Sexual intercourse is to be abandoned. With regard to sexual intercourse, the Buddha declares the cutting off of the bridge.”

There’s no loophole. It is to be abandoned. If you don’t, you’re gonna cut yourself short. End of story. I’m married, so I too understand the need to find a way to make it okay, but it isn’t. Yeah, you can be a solid five precept follower and that virtue can take you a long way, but sexual activity cultivates sensuality and it is non-negotiable that sense restraint must be developed.
Same here, which is why I strive for stream entry, a realistic goal for householders. It's also worth noting that sensuality is not fully eliminated until the third stage of awakening.
“Apart from Master Gotama, the monks and nuns, and the male lay followers clothed in white leading lives of celibacy, is there any male lay follower's...female lay follower's, Master Gotama’s disciples, clothed in white enjoying sensual pleasures, who carries out his instruction, responds to his advice, has gone beyond doubt, become free from perplexity, gained intrepidity, and become independent of others in the Teacher’s dispensation?"

“There are not only one hundred ... or five hundred, but far more male lay followers...female lay follower's, my disciples, clothed in white enjoying sensual pleasures, who carry out my instruction, respond to my advice, have gone beyond doubt, become free from perplexity, gained intrepidity, and become independent of others in the Teacher’s dispensation."

MN 73

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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Re: Is a sexual relationship with a legitimate partner not considered attachment (greed)?

Post by SDC »

justindesilva wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 4:29 pm Sex was not a need for reproduction at the beginning (agganna sutta).
It seems the Aggañña sutta (DN 27) is describing the “the past”, “ancient lore” or “old tradition” of the brahmins. It seems the Buddha goes through the whole belief system just to conclude with the fact that none of it matters when it comes to who can practice Dhamma. I don’t think he intended it as an origin story in line with the priority or importance of the eightfold path. When he does talk about the origin of the world elsewhere in the suttas, it has nothing to do with what is found in DN 27. That is how I read it at least.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: Is a sexual relationship with a legitimate partner not considered attachment (greed)?

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bodom wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 5:19 pm
SDC wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:25 pm AN 4.159: “ This body comes into being through sexual intercourse. Sexual intercourse is to be abandoned. With regard to sexual intercourse, the Buddha declares the cutting off of the bridge.”

There’s no loophole. It is to be abandoned. If you don’t, you’re gonna cut yourself short. End of story. I’m married, so I too understand the need to find a way to make it okay, but it isn’t. Yeah, you can be a solid five precept follower and that virtue can take you a long way, but sexual activity cultivates sensuality and it is non-negotiable that sense restraint must be developed.
Same here, which is why I strive for stream entry, a realistic goal for householders. It's also worth noting that sensuality is not fully eliminated until the third stage of awakening.
“Apart from Master Gotama, the monks and nuns, and the male lay followers clothed in white leading lives of celibacy, is there any male lay follower's...female lay follower's, Master Gotama’s disciples, clothed in white enjoying sensual pleasures, who carries out his instruction, responds to his advice, has gone beyond doubt, become free from perplexity, gained intrepidity, and become independent of others in the Teacher’s dispensation?"

“There are not only one hundred ... or five hundred, but far more male lay followers...female lay follower's, my disciples, clothed in white enjoying sensual pleasures, who carry out my instruction, respond to my advice, have gone beyond doubt, become free from perplexity, gained intrepidity, and become independent of others in the Teacher’s dispensation."

MN 73

:anjali:
Good stuff, bodom.

Is “clothed in white” a designation for an 8 precept follower? I suppose it is possible that they are celibate but enjoying otherwise?
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: Is a sexual relationship with a legitimate partner not considered attachment (greed)?

Post by bodom »

SDC wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:25 pm
bodom wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 5:19 pm
SDC wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:25 pm AN 4.159: “ This body comes into being through sexual intercourse. Sexual intercourse is to be abandoned. With regard to sexual intercourse, the Buddha declares the cutting off of the bridge.”

There’s no loophole. It is to be abandoned. If you don’t, you’re gonna cut yourself short. End of story. I’m married, so I too understand the need to find a way to make it okay, but it isn’t. Yeah, you can be a solid five precept follower and that virtue can take you a long way, but sexual activity cultivates sensuality and it is non-negotiable that sense restraint must be developed.
Same here, which is why I strive for stream entry, a realistic goal for householders. It's also worth noting that sensuality is not fully eliminated until the third stage of awakening.
“Apart from Master Gotama, the monks and nuns, and the male lay followers clothed in white leading lives of celibacy, is there any male lay follower's...female lay follower's, Master Gotama’s disciples, clothed in white enjoying sensual pleasures, who carries out his instruction, responds to his advice, has gone beyond doubt, become free from perplexity, gained intrepidity, and become independent of others in the Teacher’s dispensation?"

“There are not only one hundred ... or five hundred, but far more male lay followers...female lay follower's, my disciples, clothed in white enjoying sensual pleasures, who carry out my instruction, respond to my advice, have gone beyond doubt, become free from perplexity, gained intrepidity, and become independent of others in the Teacher’s dispensation."

MN 73

:anjali:
Good stuff, bodom.

Is “clothed in white” a designation for an 8 precept follower? I suppose it is possible that they are celibate but enjoying otherwise?
Well in the preceding section of the sutta I quoted the Buddha specifically states that there were male and female householders observing celibacy in contrast to those who were still enjoying sensual pleasures. Sensual pleasure in this context implies to me that were engaging in sexual Intercourse. There would be no reason for him to differentiate between the two in other words. That's how I see it anyways.

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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Re: Is a sexual relationship with a legitimate partner not considered attachment (greed)?

Post by SDC »

bodom wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:35 pm
Well in the preceding section of the sutta I quoted the Buddha specifically states that there were male and female householders observing celibacy in contrast to those who were still enjoying sensual pleasures. Sensual pleasure in this context implies to me that were engaging in sexual Intercourse. There would be no reason for him to differentiate between the two in other words. That's how I see it anyways.

:anjali:
Makes sense! :thumbsup:
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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