Is a sexual relationship with a legitimate partner not considered attachment (greed)?

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Sam Vara
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Re: Is a sexual relationship with a legitimate partner not considered attachment (greed)?

Post by Sam Vara »

Zenny wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:04 am
Sam Vara wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:24 pm
Zenny wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:15 pm

So you have no proof from the suttas basically.
Yes, the suttas showing how the Buddha had fulfilled the Holy Life of celibacy were given above; there are dozens more. I'll let you find them yourself because your claim that the only way a once-married man can stop being married is through divorce has been refuted so often that I cannot believe you are posting in good faith.

With that, I'll bid you a peaceful good night. :anjali:
There is no explicit proof. If there was you and others would have posted it already. Let's see if anyone else posts some suttas.
What are you asking for proof of?

Is your claim the trivial one that there is no canonical record of the Buddha undergoing a formal divorce procedure? Or the more weighty claim that after enlightenment, the Buddha continued to have sex with his wife and live in a family household?
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Re: Is a sexual relationship with a legitimate partner not considered attachment (greed)?

Post by Zenny »

Sam Vara wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:21 am
Zenny wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:04 am
Sam Vara wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:24 pm

Yes, the suttas showing how the Buddha had fulfilled the Holy Life of celibacy were given above; there are dozens more. I'll let you find them yourself because your claim that the only way a once-married man can stop being married is through divorce has been refuted so often that I cannot believe you are posting in good faith.

With that, I'll bid you a peaceful good night. :anjali:
There is no explicit proof. If there was you and others would have posted it already. Let's see if anyone else posts some suttas.
What are you asking for proof of?

Is your claim the trivial one that there is no canonical record of the Buddha undergoing a formal divorce procedure? Or the more weighty claim that after enlightenment, the Buddha continued to have sex with his wife and live in a family household?
Both.
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Re: Is a sexual relationship with a legitimate partner not considered attachment (greed)?

Post by Mr Albatross »

Zenny wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:07 am This is not a general or explicit proof.
Any explicit proof?
If all the records of married men going forth refer to their wives as "former wives" (which they do, that is, when they bother referring to them at all), and if there are no cases where such men are described as going through any formal divorce proceedings, then this counts as evidence that going forth caused a married man to be reckoned as no longer married.

Furthermore, listen to Yasodharā herself:
"I am Yasodharā, Hero;
in the home I was your chief queen,
born in the clan of the Śākyas,
established among the women.

In your household, O Hero, I
was the leader, the lord of all
of the women there,

https://suttacentral.net/thi-ap28/en/walters
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Re: Is a sexual relationship with a legitimate partner not considered attachment (greed)?

Post by Sam Vara »

Zenny wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:27 am
Sam Vara wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:21 am
Zenny wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:04 am

There is no explicit proof. If there was you and others would have posted it already. Let's see if anyone else posts some suttas.
What are you asking for proof of?

Is your claim the trivial one that there is no canonical record of the Buddha undergoing a formal divorce procedure? Or the more weighty claim that after enlightenment, the Buddha continued to have sex with his wife and live in a family household?
Both.
Well, as pointed out repeatedly above, the lack of evidence of the Buddha being formally divorced is inconsequential, because the important point here is whether he gave up the household life. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, so he may well have been formally and legally divorced even if the suttas don't explicitly mention that. And I'm not sure whether there was a concept of divorce in the Buddha's time. I can't recall it being mentioned. Can you?

That leaves us with the question of whether the Buddha continued to have sex after his enlightenment. He says he didn't:
Then Jāṇussoṇin the brahman went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to the Blessed One, “Does Master Gotama claim to be one who leads the holy life?”

“If, brahman, one could rightly say of anyone, ‘He leads the holy life without gap, without break, without spot, without blemish—perfect & pure,’ it would rightly be said of me. I lead the holy life without gap, without break, without spot, without blemish—perfect & pure.”

“But what, Master Gotama, is a gap, a break, a spot, a blemish of the holy life?”

“There is the case, brahman, where a certain contemplative or brahman, while claiming to be one who rightly follows the holy life, doesn’t actually engage in copulating with a woman but he does consent to being anointed, rubbed down, bathed, or massaged by a woman. He enjoys that, wants more of that, and luxuriates in that. This is a gap, a break, a spot, a blemish of the holy life. He is called one who lives the holy life in an impure way, one who is fettered by the fetter of sexuality. He is not freed from birth, aging, & death, from sorrows, lamentations, pains, griefs, & despairs. He is not freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress.

“Or… he jokes, plays, and amuses himself with a woman. He enjoys that, wants more of that, and luxuriates in that.…

“Or… he stares into a woman’s eyes. He enjoys that, wants more of that, and luxuriates in that.…

“Or… he listens to the voices of women outside a wall as they laugh, speak, sing, or cry. He enjoys that, wants more of that, and luxuriates in that.…

“Or… he recollects how he used to laugh, converse, and play with a woman. He enjoys that, wants more of that, and luxuriates in that.…

“Or… he sees a householder or householder’s son enjoying himself endowed with the five strings of sensuality. He enjoys that, wants more of that, and luxuriates in that.…

“Or… he practices the holy life intent on being born in one or another of the deva hosts, (thinking) ‘By this virtue or practice or abstinence or holy life I will be a deva of one sort or another.’ He enjoys that, wants more of that, and luxuriates in that. This is a gap, a break, a spot, a blemish of the holy life. He is called one who lives the holy life in an impure way, one who is fettered by the fetter of sexuality. He is not freed from birth, aging, & death, from sorrows, lamentations, pains, griefs, & despairs. He is not freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress.

“And, brahman, as long as I saw that one or another of these seven fetters of sexuality was not abandoned in myself, I did not claim to have directly awakened to the right self-awakening unexcelled in the cosmos with its devas, Māras, & Brahmās, in this generation with its contemplatives & brahmans, their royalty & commonfolk. But when I did not see any one of these seven fetters of sexuality unabandoned in myself, then I did claim to have directly awakened to the right self-awakening unexcelled in the cosmos with its devas, Māras, & Brahmās, in this generation with its contemplatives & brahmans, their royalty & commonfolk. Knowledge & vision arose in me: ‘Unprovoked is my release. This is the last birth. There is now no further becoming.’”
So here is a sutta saying that he had abandoned the fetters of sexuality. Are there any that say that on the contrary that he did have sex after enlightenment?
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Re: Is a sexual relationship with a legitimate partner not considered attachment (greed)?

Post by Zenny »

Mr Albatross wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:43 am
Zenny wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:07 am This is not a general or explicit proof.
Any explicit proof?
If all the records of married men going forth refer to their wives as "former wives" (which they do, that is, when they bother referring to them at all), and if there are no cases where such men are described as going through any formal divorce proceedings, then this counts as evidence that going forth caused a married man to be reckoned as no longer married.

Furthermore, listen to Yasodharā herself:
"I am Yasodharā, Hero;
in the home I was your chief queen,
born in the clan of the Śākyas,
established among the women.

In your household, O Hero, I
was the leader, the lord of all
of the women there,

https://suttacentral.net/thi-ap28/en/walters
It's not a proof for Buddha directly.
Am I to believe all these pious monks just abandoned their wives and children?
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Re: Is a sexual relationship with a legitimate partner not considered attachment (greed)?

Post by Zenny »

Sam Vara wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:46 am
Zenny wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:27 am
Sam Vara wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:21 am

What are you asking for proof of?

Is your claim the trivial one that there is no canonical record of the Buddha undergoing a formal divorce procedure? Or the more weighty claim that after enlightenment, the Buddha continued to have sex with his wife and live in a family household?
Both.
Well, as pointed out repeatedly above, the lack of evidence of the Buddha being formally divorced is inconsequential, because the important point here is whether he gave up the household life. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, so he may well have been formally and legally divorced even if the suttas don't explicitly mention that. And I'm not sure whether there was a concept of divorce in the Buddha's time. I can't recall it being mentioned. Can you?

That leaves us with the question of whether the Buddha continued to have sex after his enlightenment. He says he didn't:
Then Jāṇussoṇin the brahman went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to the Blessed One, “Does Master Gotama claim to be one who leads the holy life?”

“If, brahman, one could rightly say of anyone, ‘He leads the holy life without gap, without break, without spot, without blemish—perfect & pure,’ it would rightly be said of me. I lead the holy life without gap, without break, without spot, without blemish—perfect & pure.”

“But what, Master Gotama, is a gap, a break, a spot, a blemish of the holy life?”

“There is the case, brahman, where a certain contemplative or brahman, while claiming to be one who rightly follows the holy life, doesn’t actually engage in copulating with a woman but he does consent to being anointed, rubbed down, bathed, or massaged by a woman. He enjoys that, wants more of that, and luxuriates in that. This is a gap, a break, a spot, a blemish of the holy life. He is called one who lives the holy life in an impure way, one who is fettered by the fetter of sexuality. He is not freed from birth, aging, & death, from sorrows, lamentations, pains, griefs, & despairs. He is not freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress.

“Or… he jokes, plays, and amuses himself with a woman. He enjoys that, wants more of that, and luxuriates in that.…

“Or… he stares into a woman’s eyes. He enjoys that, wants more of that, and luxuriates in that.…

“Or… he listens to the voices of women outside a wall as they laugh, speak, sing, or cry. He enjoys that, wants more of that, and luxuriates in that.…

“Or… he recollects how he used to laugh, converse, and play with a woman. He enjoys that, wants more of that, and luxuriates in that.…

“Or… he sees a householder or householder’s son enjoying himself endowed with the five strings of sensuality. He enjoys that, wants more of that, and luxuriates in that.…

“Or… he practices the holy life intent on being born in one or another of the deva hosts, (thinking) ‘By this virtue or practice or abstinence or holy life I will be a deva of one sort or another.’ He enjoys that, wants more of that, and luxuriates in that. This is a gap, a break, a spot, a blemish of the holy life. He is called one who lives the holy life in an impure way, one who is fettered by the fetter of sexuality. He is not freed from birth, aging, & death, from sorrows, lamentations, pains, griefs, & despairs. He is not freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress.

“And, brahman, as long as I saw that one or another of these seven fetters of sexuality was not abandoned in myself, I did not claim to have directly awakened to the right self-awakening unexcelled in the cosmos with its devas, Māras, & Brahmās, in this generation with its contemplatives & brahmans, their royalty & commonfolk. But when I did not see any one of these seven fetters of sexuality unabandoned in myself, then I did claim to have directly awakened to the right self-awakening unexcelled in the cosmos with its devas, Māras, & Brahmās, in this generation with its contemplatives & brahmans, their royalty & commonfolk. Knowledge & vision arose in me: ‘Unprovoked is my release. This is the last birth. There is now no further becoming.’”
So here is a sutta saying that he had abandoned the fetters of sexuality. Are there any that say that on the contrary that he did have sex after enlightenment?
Still no proof of divorce,which was obviously known back then.
Do you think Buddha had no contact with his wife at all for 35 years. Even shooting the breeze or being friends?

That sutta sounds like the same level as the jakata tales and some other hagiographic and ideological stories.
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Re: Is a sexual relationship with a legitimate partner not considered attachment (greed)?

Post by asahi »

It seems it was a norm for indians leaving household life (whether informing their family or not) to be an ascetics in ancient times and even today .
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Re: Is a sexual relationship with a legitimate partner not considered attachment (greed)?

Post by Mr Albatross »

Zenny wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:50 am Am I to believe all these pious monks just abandoned their wives and children?
:shrug:

I can't imagine why you wouldn't.
Venerable Saṅgāmajī’s former wife heard: “Master Saṅgāmajī it seems has arrived at Sāvatthī”, and taking her little boy she went to Jeta’s Wood.

Then at that time venerable Saṅgāmajī was dwelling for the day sat at the root of a certain tree. Then venerable Saṅgāmajī’s former wife went to venerable Saṅgāmajī, and after going, she said to venerable Saṅgāmajī: “I have a little son, ascetic, you must take care of me.”

After that was said, venerable Saṅgāmajī was silent.

For a second time venerable Saṅgāmajī’s former wife said to venerable Saṅgāmajī: “I have a little son, ascetic, you must take care of me.”

For a second time venerable Saṅgāmajī was silent.

For a third time venerable Saṅgāmajī’s former wife said to venerable Saṅgāmajī: “I have a little son, ascetic, you must take care of me.”

For a third time venerable Saṅgāmajī was silent.

Then venerable Saṅgāmajī’s former wife, having put the boy down in front of venerable Saṅgāmajī, went away, saying: “This is your son, ascetic, you must take care of him.”

But venerable Saṅgāmajī did not look at the boy, nor did he speak to him.

Then venerable Saṅgāmajī’s former wife having gone not far away, looking round saw that venerable Saṅgāmajī was neither looking at the boy, nor was he speaking to him. Having seen that this occured to her: “This ascetic does not even have need of a son.” Therefore, after turning back and taking the boy, she went away.

The Gracious One saw with the divine-eye which is purified, and surpasses that of normal men, that venerable Saṅgāmajī’s former wife had such bad manners. Then the Gracious One, having understood the significance of it, on that occasion uttered this exalted utterance:

“In her coming he does not rejoice, in her leaving he does not grieve,
Saṅgāmajī ‘Victorious in Battle’, free from the shackle: him I call a brāhmaṇa.”
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Re: Is a sexual relationship with a legitimate partner not considered attachment (greed)?

Post by Zenny »

asahi wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:00 am It seems it was a norm for indians leaving household life (whether informing their family or not) to be an ascetics in ancient times and even today .
Was it? Wasn't it the case that it was a period of training and that they would then return to the household even stronger spiritually?
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Re: Is a sexual relationship with a legitimate partner not considered attachment (greed)?

Post by Zenny »

Mr Albatross wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:01 am
Zenny wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:50 am Am I to believe all these pious monks just abandoned their wives and children?
:shrug:

I can't imagine why you wouldn't.
Venerable Saṅgāmajī’s former wife heard: “Master Saṅgāmajī it seems has arrived at Sāvatthī”, and taking her little boy she went to Jeta’s Wood.

Then at that time venerable Saṅgāmajī was dwelling for the day sat at the root of a certain tree. Then venerable Saṅgāmajī’s former wife went to venerable Saṅgāmajī, and after going, she said to venerable Saṅgāmajī: “I have a little son, ascetic, you must take care of me.”

After that was said, venerable Saṅgāmajī was silent.

For a second time venerable Saṅgāmajī’s former wife said to venerable Saṅgāmajī: “I have a little son, ascetic, you must take care of me.”

For a second time venerable Saṅgāmajī was silent.

For a third time venerable Saṅgāmajī’s former wife said to venerable Saṅgāmajī: “I have a little son, ascetic, you must take care of me.”

For a third time venerable Saṅgāmajī was silent.

Then venerable Saṅgāmajī’s former wife, having put the boy down in front of venerable Saṅgāmajī, went away, saying: “This is your son, ascetic, you must take care of him.”

But venerable Saṅgāmajī did not look at the boy, nor did he speak to him.

Then venerable Saṅgāmajī’s former wife having gone not far away, looking round saw that venerable Saṅgāmajī was neither looking at the boy, nor was he speaking to him. Having seen that this occured to her: “This ascetic does not even have need of a son.” Therefore, after turning back and taking the boy, she went away.

The Gracious One saw with the divine-eye which is purified, and surpasses that of normal men, that venerable Saṅgāmajī’s former wife had such bad manners. Then the Gracious One, having understood the significance of it, on that occasion uttered this exalted utterance:

“In her coming he does not rejoice, in her leaving he does not grieve,
Saṅgāmajī ‘Victorious in Battle’, free from the shackle: him I call a brāhmaṇa.”
Because it makes these monks look inhuman and lacking in any compassion.
Society in general looks down on absentee fathers.
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Re: Is a sexual relationship with a legitimate partner not considered attachment (greed)?

Post by Sam Vara »

Zenny wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:56 am
Sam Vara wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:46 am
Zenny wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:27 am

Both.
Well, as pointed out repeatedly above, the lack of evidence of the Buddha being formally divorced is inconsequential, because the important point here is whether he gave up the household life. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, so he may well have been formally and legally divorced even if the suttas don't explicitly mention that. And I'm not sure whether there was a concept of divorce in the Buddha's time. I can't recall it being mentioned. Can you?

That leaves us with the question of whether the Buddha continued to have sex after his enlightenment. He says he didn't:
Then Jāṇussoṇin the brahman went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to the Blessed One, “Does Master Gotama claim to be one who leads the holy life?”

“If, brahman, one could rightly say of anyone, ‘He leads the holy life without gap, without break, without spot, without blemish—perfect & pure,’ it would rightly be said of me. I lead the holy life without gap, without break, without spot, without blemish—perfect & pure.”

“But what, Master Gotama, is a gap, a break, a spot, a blemish of the holy life?”

“There is the case, brahman, where a certain contemplative or brahman, while claiming to be one who rightly follows the holy life, doesn’t actually engage in copulating with a woman but he does consent to being anointed, rubbed down, bathed, or massaged by a woman. He enjoys that, wants more of that, and luxuriates in that. This is a gap, a break, a spot, a blemish of the holy life. He is called one who lives the holy life in an impure way, one who is fettered by the fetter of sexuality. He is not freed from birth, aging, & death, from sorrows, lamentations, pains, griefs, & despairs. He is not freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress.

“Or… he jokes, plays, and amuses himself with a woman. He enjoys that, wants more of that, and luxuriates in that.…

“Or… he stares into a woman’s eyes. He enjoys that, wants more of that, and luxuriates in that.…

“Or… he listens to the voices of women outside a wall as they laugh, speak, sing, or cry. He enjoys that, wants more of that, and luxuriates in that.…

“Or… he recollects how he used to laugh, converse, and play with a woman. He enjoys that, wants more of that, and luxuriates in that.…

“Or… he sees a householder or householder’s son enjoying himself endowed with the five strings of sensuality. He enjoys that, wants more of that, and luxuriates in that.…

“Or… he practices the holy life intent on being born in one or another of the deva hosts, (thinking) ‘By this virtue or practice or abstinence or holy life I will be a deva of one sort or another.’ He enjoys that, wants more of that, and luxuriates in that. This is a gap, a break, a spot, a blemish of the holy life. He is called one who lives the holy life in an impure way, one who is fettered by the fetter of sexuality. He is not freed from birth, aging, & death, from sorrows, lamentations, pains, griefs, & despairs. He is not freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress.

“And, brahman, as long as I saw that one or another of these seven fetters of sexuality was not abandoned in myself, I did not claim to have directly awakened to the right self-awakening unexcelled in the cosmos with its devas, Māras, & Brahmās, in this generation with its contemplatives & brahmans, their royalty & commonfolk. But when I did not see any one of these seven fetters of sexuality unabandoned in myself, then I did claim to have directly awakened to the right self-awakening unexcelled in the cosmos with its devas, Māras, & Brahmās, in this generation with its contemplatives & brahmans, their royalty & commonfolk. Knowledge & vision arose in me: ‘Unprovoked is my release. This is the last birth. There is now no further becoming.’”
So here is a sutta saying that he had abandoned the fetters of sexuality. Are there any that say that on the contrary that he did have sex after enlightenment?
Still no proof of divorce,which was obviously known back then.
Yes, I don't know of any sutta which provides proof of the Buddha being legally divorced. But that doesn't seem to be very important. And if it's obvious that divorce was known in the Buddha's time, can you provide evidence? What's the Pali term?
Do you think Buddha had no contact with his wife at all for 35 years. Even shooting the breeze or being friends?
I don't know about contact with his wife, but the suttas don't give a picture of a being who "shoots the breeze", as this would be the kind of speech which he proscribed for contemplatives.
That sutta sounds like the same level as the jakata tales and some other hagiographic and ideological stories
Can you say how it is like the Jataka tales and give some examples of "hagiographic and ideological stories" in the canon? Can you explain the criteria for allocating particular suttas to the "levels" you describe?

Here are some more suttas in which the Buddha appears to say that enlightened beings such as himself don't engage in sex. Can you explain why these should be discounted as well?
There are some contemplatives and brahmans who engage in sexual intercourse, who don't refrain from sexual intercourse. This is the second obscuration of contemplatives and brahmans, obscured by which some contemplatives and brahmans don't glow, don't shine, don't dazzle
Yes, Sutavan, you heard it rightly, learned it rightly, attended to it rightly, & understood it rightly. Both before & now I say to you that an arahant monk whose mental fermentations are ended, who has reached fulfillment, done the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, totally destroyed the fetter of becoming, and who is released through right gnosis, cannot possibly transgress these nine principles.

"[1] It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to intentionally deprive a living being of life. [2] It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to take, in the manner of stealing, what is not given. [3] It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to engage in sexual intercourse.
This body comes into being through sexual intercourse. Sexual intercourse is to be abandoned. With regard to sexual intercourse, the Buddha declares the cutting off of the bridge
For all their lives the arahants dwell having abandoned unchaste conduct, they are of chaste conduct, living aloof, refrain from sex which is the way of common society
[Magandiya offers his daughter to the Buddha, who replies:]
On seeing [the daughters of Mara]
— Discontent, Craving, & Passion —
there wasn't even the desire for sex.
So what would I want with this,
filled with urine & excrement?
I wouldn't want to touch it
even with my foot.
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Re: Is a sexual relationship with a legitimate partner not considered attachment (greed)?

Post by Zenny »

Sam Vara wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:19 am
Zenny wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:56 am
Sam Vara wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:46 am

Well, as pointed out repeatedly above, the lack of evidence of the Buddha being formally divorced is inconsequential, because the important point here is whether he gave up the household life. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, so he may well have been formally and legally divorced even if the suttas don't explicitly mention that. And I'm not sure whether there was a concept of divorce in the Buddha's time. I can't recall it being mentioned. Can you?

That leaves us with the question of whether the Buddha continued to have sex after his enlightenment. He says he didn't:


So here is a sutta saying that he had abandoned the fetters of sexuality. Are there any that say that on the contrary that he did have sex after enlightenment?
Still no proof of divorce,which was obviously known back then.
Yes, I don't know of any sutta which provides proof of the Buddha being legally divorced. But that doesn't seem to be very important. And if it's obvious that divorce was known in the Buddha's time, can you provide evidence? What's the Pali term?
Do you think Buddha had no contact with his wife at all for 35 years. Even shooting the breeze or being friends?
I don't know about contact with his wife, but the suttas don't give a picture of a being who "shoots the breeze", as this would be the kind of speech which he proscribed for contemplatives.
That sutta sounds like the same level as the jakata tales and some other hagiographic and ideological stories
Can you say how it is like the Jataka tales and give some examples of "hagiographic and ideological stories" in the canon? Can you explain the criteria for allocating particular suttas to the "levels" you describe?

Here are some more suttas in which the Buddha appears to say that enlightened beings such as himself don't engage in sex. Can you explain why these should be discounted as well?
There are some contemplatives and brahmans who engage in sexual intercourse, who don't refrain from sexual intercourse. This is the second obscuration of contemplatives and brahmans, obscured by which some contemplatives and brahmans don't glow, don't shine, don't dazzle
Yes, Sutavan, you heard it rightly, learned it rightly, attended to it rightly, & understood it rightly. Both before & now I say to you that an arahant monk whose mental fermentations are ended, who has reached fulfillment, done the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, totally destroyed the fetter of becoming, and who is released through right gnosis, cannot possibly transgress these nine principles.

"[1] It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to intentionally deprive a living being of life. [2] It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to take, in the manner of stealing, what is not given. [3] It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to engage in sexual intercourse.
This body comes into being through sexual intercourse. Sexual intercourse is to be abandoned. With regard to sexual intercourse, the Buddha declares the cutting off of the bridge
For all their lives the arahants dwell having abandoned unchaste conduct, they are of chaste conduct, living aloof, refrain from sex which is the way of common society
[Magandiya offers his daughter to the Buddha, who replies:]
On seeing [the daughters of Mara]
— Discontent, Craving, & Passion —
there wasn't even the desire for sex.
So what would I want with this,
filled with urine & excrement?
I wouldn't want to touch it
even with my foot.
And yet many buddhist monks are married or disrobe.
With the last quote why would magandiya offer his daughter if he knew monks were celibate? Some of these stories just make no sense upon analysis.
You make buddhist monks sound like inhuman cold monsters.
Non buddhist Zen Practitioner.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Is a sexual relationship with a legitimate partner not considered attachment (greed)?

Post by Sam Vara »

Zenny wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:34 am
Sam Vara wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:19 am
Zenny wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:56 am

Still no proof of divorce,which was obviously known back then.
Yes, I don't know of any sutta which provides proof of the Buddha being legally divorced. But that doesn't seem to be very important. And if it's obvious that divorce was known in the Buddha's time, can you provide evidence? What's the Pali term?
Do you think Buddha had no contact with his wife at all for 35 years. Even shooting the breeze or being friends?
I don't know about contact with his wife, but the suttas don't give a picture of a being who "shoots the breeze", as this would be the kind of speech which he proscribed for contemplatives.
That sutta sounds like the same level as the jakata tales and some other hagiographic and ideological stories
Can you say how it is like the Jataka tales and give some examples of "hagiographic and ideological stories" in the canon? Can you explain the criteria for allocating particular suttas to the "levels" you describe?

Here are some more suttas in which the Buddha appears to say that enlightened beings such as himself don't engage in sex. Can you explain why these should be discounted as well?
There are some contemplatives and brahmans who engage in sexual intercourse, who don't refrain from sexual intercourse. This is the second obscuration of contemplatives and brahmans, obscured by which some contemplatives and brahmans don't glow, don't shine, don't dazzle
Yes, Sutavan, you heard it rightly, learned it rightly, attended to it rightly, & understood it rightly. Both before & now I say to you that an arahant monk whose mental fermentations are ended, who has reached fulfillment, done the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, totally destroyed the fetter of becoming, and who is released through right gnosis, cannot possibly transgress these nine principles.

"[1] It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to intentionally deprive a living being of life. [2] It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to take, in the manner of stealing, what is not given. [3] It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to engage in sexual intercourse.
This body comes into being through sexual intercourse. Sexual intercourse is to be abandoned. With regard to sexual intercourse, the Buddha declares the cutting off of the bridge
For all their lives the arahants dwell having abandoned unchaste conduct, they are of chaste conduct, living aloof, refrain from sex which is the way of common society
[Magandiya offers his daughter to the Buddha, who replies:]
On seeing [the daughters of Mara]
— Discontent, Craving, & Passion —
there wasn't even the desire for sex.
So what would I want with this,
filled with urine & excrement?
I wouldn't want to touch it
even with my foot.
And yet many buddhist monks are married or disrobe.
Theravadan monks are not married, of course. And sexual intercourse is a disrobing offence for a monk. Which is of course more evidence (if it were needed) for the Buddha being absolutely celibate according to the suttas. He didn't disrobe.
With the last quote why would magandiya offer his daughter if he knew monks were celibate? Some of these stories just make no sense upon analysis.
I don't know Magandiya's motivation, but it's ridiculous to think that celibate people don't get offered sex. Ask any young good-looking Catholic priest.
You make buddhist monks sound like inhuman cold monsters.
I'm doing nothing other than quoting suttas. The inhumanity, coldness, and monstrosity are what you are reading into it. Perhaps that's something that's worth reflecting upon.
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Re: Is a sexual relationship with a legitimate partner not considered attachment (greed)?

Post by Zenny »

Sam Vara wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:44 am
Zenny wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:34 am
Sam Vara wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:19 am

Yes, I don't know of any sutta which provides proof of the Buddha being legally divorced. But that doesn't seem to be very important. And if it's obvious that divorce was known in the Buddha's time, can you provide evidence? What's the Pali term?



I don't know about contact with his wife, but the suttas don't give a picture of a being who "shoots the breeze", as this would be the kind of speech which he proscribed for contemplatives.



Can you say how it is like the Jataka tales and give some examples of "hagiographic and ideological stories" in the canon? Can you explain the criteria for allocating particular suttas to the "levels" you describe?

Here are some more suttas in which the Buddha appears to say that enlightened beings such as himself don't engage in sex. Can you explain why these should be discounted as well?








And yet many buddhist monks are married or disrobe.
Theravadan monks are not married, of course. And sexual intercourse is a disrobing offence for a monk. Which is of course more evidence (if it were needed) for the Buddha being absolutely celibate according to the suttas. He didn't disrobe.
With the last quote why would magandiya offer his daughter if he knew monks were celibate? Some of these stories just make no sense upon analysis.
I don't know Magandiya's motivation, but it's ridiculous to think that celibate people don't get offered sex. Ask any young good-looking Catholic priest.
You make buddhist monks sound like inhuman cold monsters.
I'm doing nothing other than quoting suttas. The inhumanity, coldness, and monstrosity are what you are reading into it. Perhaps that's something that's worth reflecting upon.

Many mahayanan monks are married.
With magandiya your comment doesn't really make sense.
He's basically asking for a marriage proposal not a jump in the hay.
I'm not reading anything extra than what the text is demonstrating.
Your making monks out to be dour,inhuman rude verbose people.
Non buddhist Zen Practitioner.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Is a sexual relationship with a legitimate partner not considered attachment (greed)?

Post by Sam Vara »

Zenny wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:50 am
Sam Vara wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:44 am
Zenny wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:34 am

And yet many buddhist monks are married or disrobe.
Theravadan monks are not married, of course. And sexual intercourse is a disrobing offence for a monk. Which is of course more evidence (if it were needed) for the Buddha being absolutely celibate according to the suttas. He didn't disrobe.
With the last quote why would magandiya offer his daughter if he knew monks were celibate? Some of these stories just make no sense upon analysis.
I don't know Magandiya's motivation, but it's ridiculous to think that celibate people don't get offered sex. Ask any young good-looking Catholic priest.
You make buddhist monks sound like inhuman cold monsters.
I'm doing nothing other than quoting suttas. The inhumanity, coldness, and monstrosity are what you are reading into it. Perhaps that's something that's worth reflecting upon.

Many mahayanan monks are married.
Indeed. But the point is that the Buddha expected celibacy from those who went forth in his dispensation, and was himself celibate.
With magandiya your comment doesn't really make sense.
He's basically asking for a marriage proposal not a jump in the hay.
It makes perfect sense if you take a little time and apply a little good will. Magandiya possibly knew of the Buddha's celibacy, but nevertheless thought that it could be overcome with the right offer. Many people - possibly including yourself - seem to think that celibacy cannot be sustained.
I'm not reading anything extra than what the text is demonstrating.
What the text "demonstrates" is subjective, isn't it? It certainly doesn't use the words "inhuman", "cold", or "monster". I've known many celibate monks who were the reverse of these qualities.
Your making monks out to be dour,inhuman rude verbose people.
No, I'm not. I'm just quoting the suttas, and again if you think that then your issue is with the suttas rather than me. Your subjective opinions are your own affair.
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