Is a sexual relationship with a legitimate partner not considered attachment (greed)?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Zenny
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Re: Is a sexual relationship with a legitimate partner not considered attachment (greed)?

Post by Zenny »

Sam Vara wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:11 pm
Zenny wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:54 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:45 pm

Note how you change the debate yet again, in order to maintain a position.

But no, I am not venerating those who have no feelings for children or parents. If anything, I venerate those who have transcended clinging to people in favour of dispassionately helping them to attain their own liberation.

And yes, by celibate I mean sexually inactive, whatever other posters say or do.
Nope. I don't see changing. I see nuance.
You are venerating those who develop dispassion. Which is the same thing as no feelings.
Whatever happened to compassion?
Yes, dispassion is good: virāgā vimuccati, because of dispassion he/it is freed. I don't see it as being the same as having no feelings at all. I don't even see how it's possible to have no feelings. The Buddha taught out of compassion, so when he taught those who were biologically related to him the compassion was presumably as much in evidence then as elsewhere.
Dispassionate compassion!
I'm all for poetic expression but this is not poetry but the same as a humble brag. An oxymoron disguising cold feelings.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Is a sexual relationship with a legitimate partner not considered attachment (greed)?

Post by Sam Vara »

Zenny wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:39 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:11 pm
Zenny wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:54 pm
Nope. I don't see changing. I see nuance.
You are venerating those who develop dispassion. Which is the same thing as no feelings.
Whatever happened to compassion?
Yes, dispassion is good: virāgā vimuccati, because of dispassion he/it is freed. I don't see it as being the same as having no feelings at all. I don't even see how it's possible to have no feelings. The Buddha taught out of compassion, so when he taught those who were biologically related to him the compassion was presumably as much in evidence then as elsewhere.
Dispassionate compassion!
I'm all for poetic expression but this is not poetry but the same as a humble brag. An oxymoron disguising cold feelings.
In terms of practice, I've not found it to be anything like that. Perhaps I'm lucky to have a good teacher. Looking at it from the outside and getting tangled up in the meanings of unfamiliar words, I guess people will see it differently. Oh well.
Zenny
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Re: Is a sexual relationship with a legitimate partner not considered attachment (greed)?

Post by Zenny »

Sam Vara wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:51 pm
Zenny wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:39 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:11 pm

Yes, dispassion is good: virāgā vimuccati, because of dispassion he/it is freed. I don't see it as being the same as having no feelings at all. I don't even see how it's possible to have no feelings. The Buddha taught out of compassion, so when he taught those who were biologically related to him the compassion was presumably as much in evidence then as elsewhere.

Dispassionate compassion!
I'm all for poetic expression but this is not poetry but the same as a humble brag. An oxymoron disguising cold feelings.
In terms of practice, I've not found it to be anything like that. Perhaps I'm lucky to have a good teacher. Looking at it from the outside and getting tangled up in the meanings of unfamiliar words, I guess people will see it differently. Oh well.
For your sake I hope your eventually right.
Its a lesson in eloquence. If one wants to explain their practice one must be reasonably clear. You can't just blame others claiming they don't see it properly.
And to be honest I think the humanity of some comes our despite the poor ideology and explanations.
With that said,the behaviour of many I see is not compassionate or fair but partisan and inconsistent. I've not seen examples of this saintly behaviour that you and others venerate in abstracto.
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Re: Is a sexual relationship with a legitimate partner not considered attachment (greed)?

Post by Sam Vara »

Zenny wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 2:10 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:51 pm
Zenny wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:39 pm


Dispassionate compassion!
I'm all for poetic expression but this is not poetry but the same as a humble brag. An oxymoron disguising cold feelings.
In terms of practice, I've not found it to be anything like that. Perhaps I'm lucky to have a good teacher. Looking at it from the outside and getting tangled up in the meanings of unfamiliar words, I guess people will see it differently. Oh well.
For your sake I hope your eventually right.
Its a lesson in eloquence. If one wants to explain their practice one must be reasonably clear. You can't just blame others claiming they don't see it properly.
And to be honest I think the humanity of some comes our despite the poor ideology and explanations.
With that said,the behaviour of many I see is not compassionate or fair but partisan and inconsistent. I've not seen examples of this saintly behaviour that you and others venerate in abstracto.
The "saintly behaviour" talked of is of the Buddha and arahants. I don't think one should expect that online, to be honest.

Most people come here to DW and find that although it's far from perfect, a little humility and a willingness to learn leads to them having no problems with how they are treated by others. If, however, they are more inclined to push their own opinions and argue intransigently about stuff they don't really understand, then they find it less congenial. Unless, of course, they are just bored and welcome the attention it brings. :thinking:
Zenny
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Re: Is a sexual relationship with a legitimate partner not considered attachment (greed)?

Post by Zenny »

Sam Vara wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 2:40 pm
Zenny wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 2:10 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:51 pm

In terms of practice, I've not found it to be anything like that. Perhaps I'm lucky to have a good teacher. Looking at it from the outside and getting tangled up in the meanings of unfamiliar words, I guess people will see it differently. Oh well.
For your sake I hope your eventually right.
Its a lesson in eloquence. If one wants to explain their practice one must be reasonably clear. You can't just blame others claiming they don't see it properly.
And to be honest I think the humanity of some comes our despite the poor ideology and explanations.
With that said,the behaviour of many I see is not compassionate or fair but partisan and inconsistent. I've not seen examples of this saintly behaviour that you and others venerate in abstracto.
The "saintly behaviour" talked of is of the Buddha and arahants. I don't think one should expect that online, to be honest.

Most people come here to DW and find that although it's far from perfect, a little humility and a willingness to learn leads to them having no problems with how they are treated by others. If, however, they are more inclined to push their own opinions and argue intransigently about stuff they don't really understand, then they find it less congenial. Unless, of course, they are just bored and welcome the attention it brings. :thinking:

I don't see that here. Excluding my own participation, I see folks fussin and fighting all the time. I see passive aggressiveness between members.
I see dogmatic advice given out,and a lot of uncaring comments given to people with obvious trauma.
Just look at the threads on rebirth,secular buddhism,nirvana etc etc.
And most telling is the veneration of standards that I doubt any of the members in their personal lives lives up to or adheres to.
Humility would be for those who ain't monks to just be quiet.
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Re: Is a sexual relationship with a legitimate partner not considered attachment (greed)?

Post by SDC »

Zenny wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:03 am I still don't feel your ideas are correct. But humans have a great knack of making things work well despite their bad ideas.
:namaste:
Thank you. I appreciate the sentiment.

Though I’m not worried about your judgment because I’m not concerned about whether or not I made the right choice in adopting this standard - the risk has already been worth my time. Even if I gain nothing more, it has been enough to know it is better than having not pushed it. That’s why your “certain doubt” doesn’t apply and that is the key difference between our respective understandings. One thing you should learn if you want to be a more skilled antagonist and get people to trust you: you have to be certain that your target shares your concerns.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
Zenny
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Re: Is a sexual relationship with a legitimate partner not considered attachment (greed)?

Post by Zenny »

SDC wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:08 pm
Zenny wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:03 am I still don't feel your ideas are correct. But humans have a great knack of making things work well despite their bad ideas.
:namaste:
Thank you. I appreciate the sentiment.

Though I’m not worried about your judgment because I’m not concerned about whether or not I made the right choice in adopting this standard - the risk has already been worth my time. Even if I gain nothing more, it has been enough to know it is better than having not pushed it. That’s why your “certain doubt” doesn’t apply and that is the key difference between our respective understandings. One thing you should learn if you want to be a more skilled antagonist and get people to trust you: you have to be certain that your target shares your concerns.

No problem.
Certain doubt? I'm not sure what you mean by that?
In all honesty trust is not something I'm after here. How can one expect trust from people who are staunchly buddhist when I am not?
I trust in the subconscious getting the message across.
And despite what you may think,antagonism is not my game but realism.
To me it's blatantly obvious most have chosen buddhism to insulate their trauma which can be OK up to a point,but when its universalised then that's the problem.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Is a sexual relationship with a legitimate partner not considered attachment (greed)?

Post by Sam Vara »

We've meandered to a point where there are general statements about what is wrong with people who post here, rather than addressing anything like the OP concerns. So, time to wind this one up and lock it.
Locked