Object of jhāna is the ultimate reality?

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auto
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Object of jhāna is the ultimate reality?

Post by auto »

Rūpa what belongs to the sensuous realm, when in jhāna it is an ultimate reality.

Ultimate reality,
Narada Abhidhammattha wrote:4. Realities - There are two realities - apparent and ultimate. Apparent reality is ordinary
conventional truth (sammuti-sacca). Ultimate reality is abstract truth (paramattha-sacca).
For instance, the smooth surface of the table we see is apparent reality. In an ultimate sense the
apparent surface consists of forces and qualities or in other words, vibrations.
..
The word paramattha is of great significance in Abhidhamma. It is a compound formed of
parama and attha. Parama is explained as immutable (aviparīta), abstract (nibbattita); attha
means thing. Paramattha, therefore, means immutable or abstract thing. Abstract reality may be
suggested as the closest equivalent. Although the term immutable is used here it should not be
understood that all paramattha are eternal or permanent.
From above we see that the ultimate reality exists in thought, is mental. Of which the counterpart sign or here conceptualized image is an ultimate reality,
Narada Abhidhammattha wrote:..This visualized object is called uggaha nimitta. Then
he concentrates on this visualized image, which is an exact mental replica of the object, until it
develops into a conceptualized image which is called patibhāga nimitta.

The difference between the first visualized image and the conceptualized image is that in the
former the fault of the device appears, while the latter is clear of all such defects and is like a
"well-burnished conchshell". The latter possesses neither color nor form. "It is just a mode of
appearance, and is born of perception".
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Object of jhāna is the ultimate reality?

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auto wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 3:22 pm
Jhana is based on conceptual reality not ultimately reality. The “breath” and then the nimitta are both concepts.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
auto
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Re: Object of jhāna is the ultimate reality?

Post by auto »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 3:24 pm
auto wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 3:22 pm
Jhana is based on conceptual reality not ultimately reality. The “breath” and then the nimitta are both concepts.
abhidhamma's ultimate reality is conceptual. It's a means to teach. (my current volatile opinion)
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Re: Object of jhāna is the ultimate reality?

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auto wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 3:28 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 3:24 pm
auto wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 3:22 pm
Jhana is based on conceptual reality not ultimately reality. The “breath” and then the nimitta are both concepts.
abhidhamma's ultimate reality is conceptual. It's a means to teach. (my current volatile opinion)
Although there are concepts of ultimate realities, the ultimate realities themselves are not concepts.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
auto
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Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Object of jhāna is the ultimate reality?

Post by auto »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 3:31 pm
auto wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 3:28 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 3:24 pm

Jhana is based on conceptual reality not ultimately reality. The “breath” and then the nimitta are both concepts.
abhidhamma's ultimate reality is conceptual. It's a means to teach. (my current volatile opinion)
Although there are concepts of ultimate realities, the ultimate realities themselves are not concepts.
the pdf says ultimate reality is abstract(nibbattita) reality.
https://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/n/nibbattita/ wrote: Concise Pali-English Dictionary by A.P. Buddhadatta Mahathera
nibbattita:[pp.of nibbatteti] produced; brought forth.
PTS Pali-English dictionary The Pali Text Society's Pali-English dictionary
Nibbattita,(adj.) [pp.of nibbatteti] done,produced,brought forth PvA.150 (a°kusalakamma=akata).(Page 361)
Ultimate reality is produced, i would say by the makers of the signs: greed, hatred, delusion.
https://suttacentral.net/mn43/en/sujato wrote: Greed, hate, and delusion are makers of signs.
Rāgo kho, āvuso, nimittakaraṇo, doso nimittakaraṇo, moho nimittakaraṇo.
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Re: Object of jhāna is the ultimate reality?

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auto wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 3:55 pm ...
I'm not quite sure that "abstract" quite captures it's meaning.
From the standpoint of ultimate reality (paramatthato): According to the Abhidhamma philosophy, there are two kinds of realities— the conventional (sammuti) and the ultimate (paramattha). Conventional realities are the referents of ordinary conceptual thought (paññatti) and conventional modes of expression (voh±ra). They include such entities as living beings, persons, men, women, animals, and the apparently stable persisting objects that constitute our unanalyzed picture of the world. The Abhidhamma philosophy maintains that these notions do not possess ultimate validity, for the objects which they signify do not exist in their own right as irreducible realities. Their mode of being is conceptual, not actual. They are products of mental construction (parikappan±), not realities existing by reason of their own nature. Ultimate realities, in contrast, are things that exist by reason of their own intrinsic nature (sabh±va). These are the dhammas: the final, irreducible components of existence, the ultimate entities which result from a correctly performed analysis of experience. Such existents admit of no further reduction, but are themselves the final terms of analysis, the true constituents of the complex manifold of experience. Hence the word paramattha is applied to them, which is derived from parama = ultimate, highest, final, and attha = reality, thing.
Comprehensive Manual of the Abhidhamma by Ven. Bodhi
Ultimate reality is produced, i would say by the makers of the signs: greed, hatred, delusion.
Those are ultimate realities.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
auto
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Re: Object of jhāna is the ultimate reality?

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Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 4:34 pm ..
Yes, ultimate is the extension of mundane for learning purposes. Whereas what realized ones know are the noble truths and conformity(how things really are) with noble truths.
circuit
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Re: Object of jhāna is the ultimate reality?

Post by circuit »

i forget where i read these, but as i remember,

if someone meditating on concept as the meditation object, s/he can experience jhāna, rupajjhana.

if someone meditating on earth kasina , the kasina is concept while earth is rupa. meditating on kasina as the meditation object, s/he can experience jhāna, rupajjhana.

concept can be used as meditation object in 5th jhana (space) and 7th jhana (nothingness).

ultimate reality as meditation object are used in conscioussness arupajjhana (6th jhāna ) and neither perception nor non-perception arupajjhana (8th jhāna)
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Re: Object of jhāna is the ultimate reality?

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circuit wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:28 pm .
Some commentary like Visuddhimagga.
Visuddhimagga pdf 379 wrote:Now, although he has already surmounted gross physical matter by means
of the fourth jhána of the fine-material sphere, nevertheless he still wants also to
surmount the kasióa materiality since it is the counterpart of the former.
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Re: Object of jhāna is the ultimate reality?

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Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 3:24 pm The “breath” and then the nimitta are both concepts.
Don't know where you got that.

The experience of the breath is not a concept. It's a perception.

All the Jhanas are based on direct perception, hence they are called perception attainments (not conceptual attainments) aside from the base of neither perception nor non-perception.

Even this still cannot be fully said to not involve perception hence the name.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: Object of jhāna is the ultimate reality?

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Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 5:24 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 3:24 pm The “breath” and then the nimitta are both concepts.
Don't know where you got that.

The experience of the breath is not a concept. It's a perception.

All the Jhanas are based on direct perception, hence they are called perception attainments (not conceptual attainments) aside from the base of neither perception nor non-perception.

Even this still cannot be fully said to not involve perception hence the name.
The Abhidhamma/Visuddhimagga. Samatha meditations take concepts as their object, insight takes ultimate realities as it’s object. Ultimately the breath does not exist. It’s a superimposition on ultimate reality by the mind. It’s a concept.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
Cause_and_Effect
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Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:39 am

Re: Object of jhāna is the ultimate reality?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:35 am The Abhidhamma/Visuddhimagga. Samatha meditations take concepts as their object, insight takes ultimate realities as it’s object. Ultimately the breath does not exist. It’s a superimposition on ultimate reality by the mind. It’s a concept.
The idea of the 'breath' is a concept, but the experience of what we call the breath is certainly not. It's a reality and a perception.
It's simply the in-out movement of the air element to our bodies and carrying out life sustaining functions.
This is a reality, independent of how we may conceive of it.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: Object of jhāna is the ultimate reality?

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Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 12:37 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:35 am The Abhidhamma/Visuddhimagga. Samatha meditations take concepts as their object, insight takes ultimate realities as it’s object. Ultimately the breath does not exist. It’s a superimposition on ultimate reality by the mind. It’s a concept.
The idea of the 'breath' is a concept, but the experience of what we call the breath is certainly not. It's a reality and a perception.
It's simply the in-out movement of the air element to our bodies and carrying out life sustaining functions.
This is a reality, independent of how we may conceive of it.
Not according to the Abhidhamma method of analysis. The air element is simply motion. When we breath there is the sensation of motion which is the air element and warm or cold which is the fire element. From these ultimate realities the mind superimposes “breath”. Ultimately though the breath is not real. During mindfulness of breathing it is this concept which is initially taken as the object, followed by the nimitta which is also an unreal concept.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
auto
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Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Object of jhāna is the ultimate reality?

Post by auto »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:35 am The Abhidhamma/Visuddhimagga. Samatha meditations take concepts as their object, insight takes ultimate realities as it’s object. Ultimately the breath does not exist. It’s a superimposition on ultimate reality by the mind. It’s a concept.
The name(concept) of breath is in order to practice and get a perception of breath which is exact replica of the breath albeit without signs what could be known with the sense organs, but this replica is made known by the touch. Other words this counterpart sign still need rely on sensual(physical) object to be made known.
Visuddhimagga wrote:29. The colour should not be reviewed. The characteristic should not be given
attention.8 But rather, while not ignoring the colour, attention should be given
by setting the mind on the [name] concept as the most outstanding mental
datum, relegating the colour to the position of a property of its physical support.

That [conceptual state] can be called by anyone he likes among the names for
earth (pathavì) such as “earth” (pathavì), “the Great One” (mahì), “the Friendly
One” (medinì), “ground” (bhúmi), “the Provider of Wealth” (vasudhá), “the Bearer
of Wealth” (vasudhará), etc., whichever suits his manner of perception.
see from above you got to know what concept would appeal to the perception, that the counterpart sign of a breath could arise.
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 12:40 pm Not according to the Abhidhamma method of analysis. The air element is simply motion. When we breath there is the sensation of motion which is the air element and warm or cold which is the fire element. From these ultimate realities the mind superimposes “breath”. Ultimately though the breath is not real. During mindfulness of breathing it is this concept which is initially taken as the object, followed by the nimitta which is also an unreal concept.
the reason for this hassle is to get the consciousness arrested from the bhavanga(subconscious state), which then will last one moment. It is followed by the impulsion and then can focus on the factor what gives rise to the jhāna.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhavanga wrote: Bhavaṅga (Pali, "ground of becoming", "condition for existence"), also bhavanga-sota and bhavanga-citta is a passive mode of intentional consciousness (citta) described in the Abhidhamma of Theravada Buddhism.[1] It is also a mental process which conditions the next mental process at the moment of death and rebirth.[1] It is an exclusively Theravada doctrine that differs from Sarvastivadin and Sautrantika theories of mind, and has been compared to the Mahayana concept of store-consciousness.[2][3]
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