Condition being born as human

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asahi
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Condition being born as human

Post by asahi »

Is it correct that the Buddha said observing 5 precepts in this life would resulted in accruing a human body in subsequent life ? Therefore , if it is so , thats mean probably all those took birth as human being in this life are because they observed 5 precepts prior to this life ?

:thanks:
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Bundokji
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Re: Condition being born as human

Post by Bundokji »

Could you please quote the sutta where the Buddha said observing the 5 precepts in this life would result in acquiring a human body in subsequent life?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
asahi
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Re: Condition being born as human

Post by asahi »

Then there is the case where a certain person refrains from taking life, refrains from taking what is not given, refrains from sensual misconduct, refrains from false speech, refrains from divisive speech, refrains from abusive speech, refrains from idle chatter, is not covetous, bears no ill will, and has right views. And he gives food, drink, cloth, vehicles, garlands, scents, creams, bed, lodging, & lamps to brahmans & contemplatives. With the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of human beings.

AN10.177
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Cause_and_Effect
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Re: Condition being born as human

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

It should be thus.
However as I understand it, only stream-entry ensures one can never fall below into the planes of deprivation.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
Bundokji
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Re: Condition being born as human

Post by Bundokji »

The sutta does not present the precepts as necessary or sufficient conditions for being reborn as human, but simply presenting "a case", so the answer is no.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
asahi
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Re: Condition being born as human

Post by asahi »

Here is another translation which does not use " a case " .


Take someone else who doesn’t kill living creatures, steal, or commit sexual misconduct. They don’t use speech that’s false, divisive, harsh, or nonsensical. And they’re contented, kind-hearted, with right view. They give to ascetics or brahmins … When their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in the human realm.
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Bundokji
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Re: Condition being born as human

Post by Bundokji »

asahi wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:30 am Here is another translation which does not use " a case " .


Take someone else who doesn’t kill living creatures, steal, or commit sexual misconduct. They don’t use speech that’s false, divisive, harsh, or nonsensical. And they’re contented, kind-hearted, with right view. They give to ascetics or brahmins … When their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in the human realm.
"Take someone else" is still presenting a case (the case of someone else). Inferring necessary or sufficient conditions does not follow. Inferring affecting "likelihood" is reasonable.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
Alino
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Re: Condition being born as human

Post by Alino »

From what I heared :

Lower Realm = no moral restrain, animal like behaviour, hellish behaviour...
Humain Realm = 5 precepts
Deva Realm = 5 precepts + generosity
Brahma Realm = jhanas

Yes, even worst mass murderer kept moral behaviour of 5 precepts long enought in order to be born as humain.
We don't live Samsara, Samsara is living us...

"Form, feelings, perceptions, formations, consciousness - don't care about us, we don't exist for them"
asahi
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Re: Condition being born as human

Post by asahi »

Bundokji wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:41 am "Take someone else" is still presenting a case (the case of someone else). Inferring necessary or sufficient conditions does not follow. Inferring affecting "likelihood" is reasonable.
So according to your understanding , observing 5 precepts will not necessary cause reborn in human realm but likelihood is there .
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Bundokji
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Re: Condition being born as human

Post by Bundokji »

asahi wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:29 pm So according to your understanding , observing 5 precepts will not necessary cause reborn in human realm but likelihood is there .
Its not my understanding. I provided an answer with a rationale based on the sutta you quoted. Had i had an understanding, i would have answered you straightaway without asking you to quote the sutta. The answer i provided seems to be inline with the notion that the exact workings of kamma cannot be comprehended except by the awakened one.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
asahi
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Re: Condition being born as human

Post by asahi »

Bundokji wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:18 pm Its not my understanding. I provided an answer with a rationale based on the sutta you quoted. Had i had an understanding, i would have answered you straightaway without asking you to quote the sutta. The answer i provided seems to be inline with the notion that the exact workings of kamma cannot be comprehended except by the awakened one.
;) sure , but what ever you said that it is inline with the sutta still an understanding based on your reasoning after reading it and provide an answer which you assert is reasonable . Someone else may provide a different answer which is her/his understanding . Same thing but different people different answer .
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Pulsar
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Re: Condition being born as human

Post by Pulsar »

Bundokji wrote
that the exact workings of kamma cannot be comprehended except by the awakened one.
True, it is silly to speculate about karma, but then quite a bit of abhidhamma of all sects wastes a lot of time speculating about kamma, thing Buddha asked us not to do.

Asahi wrote
Then there is the case where a certain person refrains from taking life, refrains from taking what is not given, refrains from sensual misconduct,
Sensual misconduct?
how many of us refrain from that? on occasion reading about Hollywood stars at the check out counter, and a zillion other things....or reading a gossip magazine ....like which celebrity was involved with Epstein, who was trading girls for sex, reading thrash about politicians or useless gossip that sell newspapers. I can write pages about sensual misconduct, that the Buddhist public
engages in.
Sensual non-misconduct would be engaging in right mindfulness, through the day. When senses are not watched they engage in misconduct. One who has reined in the senses are not engaged in sensual misconduct.
you continued
refrains from false speech, refrains from divisive speech, refrains from abusive speech, refrains from idle chatter, is not covetous, bears no ill will, and has right views.
Perhaps all of us engage in idle chatter when we get bored, to entertain ourselves. Dearest Asahi, don't you pick up the phone and call a friend just to chat? unless you are smart enough to stop yourself from dialing that number, knowing that you are gonna engage in idle chatter, like "Did you hear what happened to the couple next door?" I am joking, none of us gossip really, Do we?
Now this takes the cake
is not covetous, bears no ill will, and has right views.
is not covetous means not coveting what others have, a nice car, rich parents, a better job, connections to politicians, I can go on and on.
Bears no ill will?
Seriously have you met many Buddhists that have perfected the brahma viharas?
has right views.
Now for this, to right the wrong views, one has to be firmly established in the 8-fold path.
How many of us are?
The passage you quoted is not about just the 5 precepts.
With love :candle:
Bundokji
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Re: Condition being born as human

Post by Bundokji »

asahi wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 5:03 pm ;) sure , but what ever you said that it is inline with the sutta still an understanding based on your reasoning after reading it and provide an answer which you assert is reasonable . Someone else may provide a different answer which is her/his understanding . Same thing but different people different answer .
I provided two different inferences and described one as reasonable. I am wondering why you take my description as an "assertion" when reference to reasonableness implies moderation and prudence. To dismiss the case presented in the sutta as completely irrelevant/meaningless by virtue of it being "one isolated case" would be unreasonable.

But assuming that keeping the precepts is a necessary condition for being reborn as a human, that would still mean very little. How long should the precepts be kept to assure being reborn as human? one second, one hour, one year? and if it is a necessary condition, what are the other necessary conditions to ensure being reborn as human? and what is so special about being reborn as a human anyway except the possibility of breaking the cycle of birth and death? ;)

The rest of your input, reminding me of the possibility of other people having a different answer goes without saying. Until they do, and unless the realm of possibilities manifests itself as visibility, their views cannot be examined and assessed.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
un8-
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Re: Condition being born as human

Post by un8- »

asahi wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:11 am Therefore , if it is so , thats mean probably all those took birth as human being in this life are because they observed 5 precepts prior to this life ?



I don't think so, as there is a Sutta where the Buddha says that Jains are people who were in hell and have burned up their kamma-vipaka, and then reborn as humans and become Jains.

So it seems you can become Human simply by exhausting a certain amount of bad kamma.
"'So, friends, it seems that you don't know that you existed in the past, and that you did not not exist; you don't know that you did evil actions in the past, and that you did not not do them; you don't know that you did such-and-such evil actions in the past; you don't know that so-and-so much stress has been exhausted, or that so-and-so much stress remains to be exhausted, or that with the exhaustion of so-and-so much stress all stress will be exhausted; you don't know what is the abandoning of unskillful mental qualities and the attainment of skillful mental qualities in the here-&-now. That being the case, those in the world who are murderers, bloody-handed doers of what is cruel, when they are later reborn among human beings, go forth with the Niganthas
- mn 14

There is also another sutta that goes into details about the jains/niganthas.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
asahi
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Re: Condition being born as human

Post by asahi »

Take someone else who doesn’t kill living creatures, steal, or commit sexual misconduct. They don’t use speech that’s false, divisive, harsh, or nonsensical. And they’re contented, kind-hearted, with right view. They give to ascetics or brahmins … When their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in the human realm.
Looking at the sutta , a person without observing 5 precepts cannot have mundane right view this is in accord with Buddhism . A person with mundane right view would surely abide to the precepts . Therefore , this infer to be born as human , a person at least has to observe 5 precepts and it is a necessary condition without which there is no mundane right view . Can a person with mundane right view yet not observing 5 precepts ? :roll:
:shrug:
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