Conscientiousness and scrupulousness

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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D1W1
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Conscientiousness and scrupulousness

Post by D1W1 »

Hi all,

Another word for conscientiousness is scrupulosity. Scrupulosity is a form of mental disorder. Perfectionism tends to exhibit high degree of conscientiousness, which can lead to psychological problem.

We are human and we can never be perfect. But in Buddhism scrupulousness is encouraged. Fear of wrongdoing is also encouraged, which of course involves conscientiousness. We can always push conscientiousness to the next level but obviously we can never be perfect.
Since conscientiousness and/or scrupulousness is a subset of mental disorder, why is it considered a good thing?
Bundokji
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Re: Conscientious and scrupulosity

Post by Bundokji »

I think it is a disorder when taken as an excess. An investigative mind that pushes the boundaries of known experience increases neuroticism where conscientiousness becomes a balancing factor rather than an excess.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
circuit
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Re: Conscientiousness and scrupulousness

Post by circuit »

D1W1 wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 8:47 am
... conscientiousness and/or scrupulousness is a subset of mental disorder...
no, it's not mental disorder if it's trained by people who want to restrain their mind, speech and action in the path which can keep them safe from defilements so that their heart will be cleaned.

yes, it's mental disorder only in mentally disordered people
who follow their defilements as their motive of actions, without any intention to clean their heart.

to be carefully discern what comes up in the mind is good practice to keep precepts.

precepts saves bodily actions from wrongdoings.
conscience saves speech from wrongsayings.
discernment saves mind from wrongthinkings / wrongviews
D1W1
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Re: Conscientious and scrupulosity

Post by D1W1 »

Bundokji wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 9:07 am I think it is a disorder when taken as an excess. An investigative mind that pushes the boundaries of known experience increases neuroticism where conscientiousness becomes a balancing factor rather than an excess.
How do you know when it is excessive? And how do you deal with excess conscience?
Bundokji
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Re: Conscientious and scrupulosity

Post by Bundokji »

D1W1 wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:27 pm
Bundokji wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 9:07 am I think it is a disorder when taken as an excess. An investigative mind that pushes the boundaries of known experience increases neuroticism where conscientiousness becomes a balancing factor rather than an excess.
How do you know when it is excessive? And how do you deal with excess conscience?
How do you know that the food is salty? Or that it needs more salt?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
D1W1
Posts: 619
Joined: Sat May 30, 2015 5:52 am

Re: Conscientious and scrupulosity

Post by D1W1 »

Bundokji wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 2:04 pm
D1W1 wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:27 pm
Bundokji wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 9:07 am I think it is a disorder when taken as an excess. An investigative mind that pushes the boundaries of known experience increases neuroticism where conscientiousness becomes a balancing factor rather than an excess.
How do you know when it is excessive? And how do you deal with excess conscience?
How do you know that the food is salty? Or that it needs more salt?
More conscience will help you refrain from evil deeds.
The Buddha asserts that whatever evil arises springs from a lack of shame and fear of wrong, while all virtuous deeds spring from the sense of shame and fear of wrong.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... ay_23.html
Bundokji
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Re: Conscientious and scrupulosity

Post by Bundokji »

D1W1 wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 2:10 pm
Bundokji wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 2:04 pm
D1W1 wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:27 pm

How do you know when it is excessive? And how do you deal with excess conscience?
How do you know that the food is salty? Or that it needs more salt?
More conscience will help you refrain from evil deeds.
The Buddha asserts that whatever evil arises springs from a lack of shame and fear of wrong, while all virtuous deeds spring from the sense of shame and fear of wrong.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... ay_23.html
Yes, but I would not interpret this as "the more is the better". For example, the statement "the more salt you take, the more sodium enters your body" is true. However, it does not mean that too much salt is healthy
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
D1W1
Posts: 619
Joined: Sat May 30, 2015 5:52 am

Re: Conscientious and scrupulosity

Post by D1W1 »

Bundokji wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 2:15 pm
D1W1 wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 2:10 pm
Bundokji wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 2:04 pm

How do you know that the food is salty? Or that it needs more salt?
More conscience will help you refrain from evil deeds.
The Buddha asserts that whatever evil arises springs from a lack of shame and fear of wrong, while all virtuous deeds spring from the sense of shame and fear of wrong.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... ay_23.html
Yes, but I would not interpret this as "the more is the better". For example, the statement "the more salt you take, the more sodium enters your body" is true. However, it does not mean that too much salt is healthy
Some people call it strong or weak conscience. But you got the point.
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robertk
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Re: Conscientiousness and scrupulousness

Post by robertk »

Dhammasangani: kukuccha

Chapter IX - The Group Of The Hindrances
Nivarana-gocchakam


[1161] What is worry?[13]

Consciousness of what is lawful in something that is unlawful;
consciousness of what is unlawful in something that is lawful;
consciousness of what is immoral in something that is moral;
consciousness of what is moral in something that is immoral[14]

— all this sort of worry,
fidgeting,
overscrupulousness,
remorse of conscience,
mental scarifying[15]

— this is what is called Worry.
D1W1
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Re: Conscientiousness and scrupulousness

Post by D1W1 »

robertk wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 2:48 pm Dhammasangani: kukuccha

Chapter IX - The Group Of The Hindrances
Nivarana-gocchakam


[1161] What is worry?[13]

Consciousness of what is lawful in something that is unlawful;
consciousness of what is unlawful in something that is lawful;
consciousness of what is immoral in something that is moral;
consciousness of what is moral in something that is immoral[14]

— all this sort of worry,
fidgeting,
overscrupulousness,
remorse of conscience,
mental scarifying[15]

— this is what is called Worry.
There is no fine line between what is regarded as good or bad. When the facts you gathered before making a decision are not adequate, it's normal to err on the side of caution rather than do something irresponsible. That itself can be considered scrupulous in one occasion and over-scrupulous in other occasion. The same thing when you want to "do no harm", there is no limit. But I agree with your post above
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