Recollection of the Devas

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22391
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: Recollection of the Devas

Post by Ceisiwr »

Bundokji wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 1:16 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 12:46 pm Sure
This is the best of the convictions of outsiders, that is: ‘I might not be, and it might not be mine. I will not be, and it will not be mine.’ When someone has such a view, you can expect that they will be repulsed by continued existence, and they will not be repulsed by the cessation of continued existence. Some sentient beings have such a view. But even the sentient beings who have views like this decay and perish.
https://suttacentral.net/an10.29/en/sujato

The mantra/view being that of the annhilationists, one by which they entered the formless.
Thank you for the reference.

The quoted sutta includes many "bests", but the best of convictions is not compared/contrasted with other convictions. While some sort of criteria/rationale is mentioned as to why these convictions could be best, it leaves a lot of questions unanswered as to how these convictions can motivate actions. For example, denying ownership of future existence might be used to rationalize evil action (as well as taking ownership of it).

Is the criteria of superiority here dictated by what outsiders try to achieve? or by what the Buddha taught?
It’s said elsewhere that they were close to non-clinging.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Cause_and_Effect
Posts: 1067
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:39 am

Re: Recollection of the Devas

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Bundokji wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 10:23 am
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 2:02 pm Seeing as the teaching here is addressed to the householder Mahanama. Yet today most lay people study the Pali texts but in the Buddha's day much of the Canon was taught only to monastics with only certain discourses given to lay persons.
The distinction between lay people and monastics is interesting. As a general rule, monastics aim at enlightenment or ending the cycle of birth and death while lay people can work on attaining higher states in future lives.

What do you think the effects of this distinction on the practice including the recollection of devas?

The monk would always answer in the negative when presented with higher states of existence. It seems that saying "no" while seeking extinguishing might not guarantee cessation, but has higher planes as its fruits, and some kind of protection if one falls lower due to developing dispassion in relation to sensuality.

For the lay follower, seeking higher states motivated by greed, fear and delusion is common. Followers of other religions practice morality and abstain from wrong doing in order to attain better/higher future states. In that regard, the effectiveness of the Buddhist method (in comparison with other religions) would be contingent to having this model of the cosmos to be more objectively true, which seems to be the basis for sectarianism, considering that all constructions lack ultimate truth.
In terms of the differentiation, they would I think reflect the differing circumstances.

In the way that monastics are celibate and the vast majority of lay people are not.

One conceit among a lay practicioner would be to falsely claim or convince oneself that one is practicing solely for final release but not living ones life accordingly.

If one is practicing for Arahantship one will have chosen the life of a monastic or at the very least be living longterm committed to the 8 or 10 precepts.
To not be doing this yet claiming to be practicing solely for final release is a contradiction.

The monastic community is much more sheltered from unwholesome influence and sensory gratification thus conducive to this kind of direct practice.
The contemplations on loathsomeness of the body and of food, and maranasati would be predominant, and freedom to really live a life devoted to practice and meditation.

These can be done only to a limited extent by lay people but the situation is different as day to day living also frequently brings one into contact with forces going against this.

We are exposed to thousuands upon thousands of images especially in modern Western societies inducing not just greed for sensory contacts but hate, delusion and desire for certain forms of becoming- namely becoming more wealthy or powerful, more physically beautiful, more like certain worldy successful people or celebrities etc.

So while the highest aspiration is always the final goal of Nibbana, when practicing in a secular environment I feel that this broader cosmological side is underemphasized and should not be,
especially as it is very much part of the Buddha's teaching.

The are in the Buddha's dispensation Four classes of noble persons; Sotapanna, the Sakadagami, the Anagami, and Arahant.

When taken as pairs we have Eight individuals; the Stream enterer and those practicing for the fruit of steam entry, the once-returner and those practicing for the fruit of once-return, the non-returner and those practicing for the fruit of non-return and the Arahant and those practicing for the fruit of Arahantship.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .kuma.html

Aside from the Arahant, the first seven types all involve the possibility of a future deva existence as part of the path to Nibbana.

The reflection on Deva realms I think would therefore not be fitting for a monk as they belong to only the last pair, but is suitable for lay practioners as an expanded cosmological and aspirational contemplation to replace the common media, social and other influences we are frequently subject to which are entirely worldly.

As long as they are merely secondary reflections and a 'background' to the central Dhamma teachings of dependent origination etc, then they are beneficial as part of the reflections on the fruits of steam entry.

Lastly it can be noted that Buddhist iconography reflects these imagery.
The very earliest representations of Dhamma art were simply a wheel symbol or a stupa mound.

The very earliest prototype for Buddha statues which we are familiar comes from the Gandhara region and reflect Greco-Bactrian artistic influences.
From this tradition spread the various other Buddha statue variations we find in Thailand, Sri Lanka, Tibet etc
7863e6dd5cc8784a59da1a38953c4526.jpg
Therefore although not worshipped as a god, the representation of the Buddha himself as a figure comes from influence of Greek representation of the pantheon of gods.
ARch+5.jpg
So I would suggest that reflection on the reality of the higher planes if done correctly - as an inspiration to virtuous living and part of the fruits of stream entry, not as a final goal - can be a good buffer against the torrent of worldly influences we are subjected to and further inspiration to practice which is why the Buddha recommended it.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
Cause_and_Effect
Posts: 1067
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:39 am

Re: Recollection of the Devas

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

This is a 3D VR video simulating some of the kama-loka deva worlds, based on Lucid dreaming Astral travel experiences.


And a discussion about the application of understanding the expanded Cosmology found in the Canon.

My personal view is that the knowledge of Planes of being were taught by the Buddha and the Kalpa time system. I believe the actual layout of the world system was a later interpolation as it has some sources outside of Buddhism also, but it is useful to contemplate how we conceive our universe and its dimensions.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
Ontheway
Posts: 3062
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:35 pm

Re: Recollection of the Devas

Post by Ontheway »

Personally, during Devatanussati meditation, it is quite difficult for me to think of Higher Devas other than those from Catumaharajika and Tavatimsa Heavens.

In the scriptures, we can find a lot of description about Catumaharajika and Tavatimsa Heavens. But not much on Tusita, Yama, Nimmanarati, and Paranimmittavasavati Heavens...so I can't relate to them much...

If I meditate upon Catumaharajika Devas (as how the Sutta taught), I can only think of Vessavana Maharaja (a Sotapanna). If I meditate upon Tavatimsa Heaven, I will think of Sakka Devaraja (a Sotapanna too).
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
sakka
Posts: 80
Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:58 am

Re: Recollection of the Devas

Post by sakka »

To me devas are real beings!

But when we are in the physical body they pretty much see our stinking bodies with shit, urine, sweat, fat, pus + and all the rest of this ”wonderful” physical body most likely as a pig… :pig:

So the only physical world encounter I've had was after an indian artist made this huge painting of Sakka Devaraja for me and some time later a cloud outside, and the only cloud in the sky, seen from my balcony took the exact shape of the painting but mirrored the other way around. :anjali:

Image

The chances of this exact formation just outside where the painting hangs being a random thing is very unlikely, extremely unlikely I would say. More likely that there are great beings aware of so much than we humans. :heart:
Ontheway
Posts: 3062
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:35 pm

Re: Recollection of the Devas

Post by Ontheway »

sakka wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:57 pm To me devas are real beings!

But when we are in the physical body they pretty much see our stinking bodies with shit, urine, sweat, fat, pus + and all the rest of this ”wonderful” physical body most likely as a pig… :pig:

So the only physical world encounter I've had was after an indian artist made this huge painting of Sakka Devaraja for me and some time later a cloud outside, and the only cloud in the sky, seen from my balcony took the exact shape of the painting but mirrored the other way around. :anjali:

Image

The chances of this exact formation just outside where the painting hangs being a random thing is very unlikely, extremely unlikely I would say. More likely that there are great beings aware of so much than we humans. :heart:
Why not like this picture ? 😂😂😂
Sakka leading his fellow Brethrens to battle with Asuras. Marvel version :rofl:

Joke aside, Devatanussati is kinda comparing yourself with those Devas. Is like asking yourself whether you have Saddha, Sila, Suta, Caga, and Panna qualities that are comparable to those virtuous Devas. So I think it is really beneficial to us as laymen, helping us to reflect on our virtues and duties too.
Attachments
23812958262_0b0948951d_b.jpg
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
Cause_and_Effect
Posts: 1067
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:39 am

Re: Recollection of the Devas

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Ontheway wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:19 pm Personally, during Devatanussati meditation, it is quite difficult for me to think of Higher Devas other than those from Catumaharajika and Tavatimsa Heavens.

In the scriptures, we can find a lot of description about Catumaharajika and Tavatimsa Heavens. But not much on Tusita, Yama, Nimmanarati, and Paranimmittavasavati Heavens...so I can't relate to them much...

If I meditate upon Catumaharajika Devas (as how the Sutta taught), I can only think of Vessavana Maharaja (a Sotapanna). If I meditate upon Tavatimsa Heaven, I will think of Sakka Devaraja (a Sotapanna too).
Yes, I think it would be definitely easier to contemplate the Kama loka Deva planes nearest to us and they would also be more 'human like' but of course everything in a higher state of archetypal development. Further up you go would be more difficult to imagine.
Definitely the rupa and arupa planes would be almost impossible to get a sense of in ordinary consciousness, perhaps in the corresponding jhana one could get a vague feel for them.

As has been mentioned though a large part of the practice is to reflect on ourself and virtues and that those who arose in those planes had such virtue also.

I respect Jurgen Ziewe's work which is why I have posted some videos of his descriptions and portrayal of the deva worlds. I do believe he had rediscovered the skills of developing the mind-made body as described in the Pali Canon and thus is able to travel to and witness first hand some of these planes.
This is a skill one can develop with diligent meditation practice and surely would give a larger overview of the multidimensional cosmos as the Buddha taught, as well as a way to develop insight and contemplate during the night time hours of sleep.



Even without Astral travel the lucid dream state gives a sense of the power of the mind freed from constraints of the four great elements and aggregates to create realities which surely is a similar process to how the Deva world's are manifested.
ravanatemple.jpeg
I had discovered this, as I was fond of choosing ethereal looking computer screensavers. One night I found myself in a 'real as real' living environment which looked too beautiful to be anywhere in Earth, but reminded me of one of the screen savers I had when I realized it was a lucid dream and that my mind had created the living vivid reality for me to experience for real.
97c2057cafa9f2dc5f542dc005d75d8b.jpg
One can use this method for any so desired image and 'visit it' experientially as real as any earthly location by contemplating the image with intention to lucid dream. It is an example of how our solitary mind made experiences can far surpass anything we could ever visit in the external human world and a reminder to look within, as well as contemplation on the illusory nature of perception.
sakka wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:57 pm To me devas are real beings!

But when we are in the physical body they pretty much see our stinking bodies with shit, urine, sweat, fat, pus + and all the rest of this ”wonderful” physical body most likely as a pig… :pig:

So the only physical world encounter I've had was after an indian artist made this huge painting of Sakka Devaraja for me and some time later a cloud outside, and the only cloud in the sky, seen from my balcony took the exact shape of the painting but mirrored the other way around. :anjali:

Image

The chances of this exact formation just outside where the painting hangs being a random thing is very unlikely, extremely unlikely I would say. More likely that there are great beings aware of so much than we humans. :heart:
Yes that is a remarkable experience it seems to be a sign of a deva and a synchronocity.

I believe deva realms are seen as the final goal of many religions but for the Buddha they are just a waystation on the path.
One definitely needs to be wary of the allure of deva becoming, but one of the reasons this contemplation is important for us is to be a buffer against the everyday worldly aspirations and lowering of standards so as to encourage the path development.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
sakka
Posts: 80
Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:58 am

Re: Recollection of the Devas

Post by sakka »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 12:38 pm
Ontheway wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:19 pm Personally, during Devatanussati meditation, it is quite difficult for me to think of Higher Devas other than those from Catumaharajika and Tavatimsa Heavens.

In the scriptures, we can find a lot of description about Catumaharajika and Tavatimsa Heavens. But not much on Tusita, Yama, Nimmanarati, and Paranimmittavasavati Heavens...so I can't relate to them much...

If I meditate upon Catumaharajika Devas (as how the Sutta taught), I can only think of Vessavana Maharaja (a Sotapanna). If I meditate upon Tavatimsa Heaven, I will think of Sakka Devaraja (a Sotapanna too).
Yes, I think it would be definitely easier to contemplate the Kama loka Deva planes nearest to us and they would also be more 'human like' but of course everything in a higher state of archetypal development. Further up you go would be more difficult to imagine.
Definitely the rupa and arupa planes would be almost impossible to get a sense of in ordinary consciousness, perhaps in the corresponding jhana one could get a vague feel for them.

As has been mentioned though a large part of the practice is to reflect on ourself and virtues and that those who arose in those planes had such virtue also.

I respect Jurgen Ziewe's work which is why I have posted some videos of his descriptions and portrayal of the deva worlds. I do believe he had rediscovered the skills of developing the mind-made body as described in the Pali Canon and thus is able to travel to and witness first hand some of these planes.
This is a skill one can develop with diligent meditation practice and surely would give a larger overview of the multidimensional cosmos as the Buddha taught, as well as a way to develop insight and contemplate during the night time hours of sleep.



Even without Astral travel the lucid dream state gives a sense of the power of the mind freed from constraints of the four great elements and aggregates to create realities which surely is a similar process to how the Deva world's are manifested.

ravanatemple.jpeg

I had discovered this, as I was fond of choosing ethereal looking computer screensavers. One night I found myself in a 'real as real' living environment which looked too beautiful to be anywhere in Earth, but reminded me of one of the screen savers I had when I realized it was a lucid dream and that my mind had created the living vivid reality for me to experience for real.

97c2057cafa9f2dc5f542dc005d75d8b.jpg

One can use this method for any so desired image and 'visit it' experientially as real as any earthly location by contemplating the image with intention to lucid dream. It is an example of how our solitary mind made experiences can far surpass anything we could ever visit in the external human world and a reminder to look within, as well as contemplation on the illusory nature of perception.
sakka wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:57 pm To me devas are real beings!

But when we are in the physical body they pretty much see our stinking bodies with shit, urine, sweat, fat, pus + and all the rest of this ”wonderful” physical body most likely as a pig… :pig:

So the only physical world encounter I've had was after an indian artist made this huge painting of Sakka Devaraja for me and some time later a cloud outside, and the only cloud in the sky, seen from my balcony took the exact shape of the painting but mirrored the other way around. :anjali:

Image

The chances of this exact formation just outside where the painting hangs being a random thing is very unlikely, extremely unlikely I would say. More likely that there are great beings aware of so much than we humans. :heart:
Yes that is a remarkable experience it seems to be a sign of a deva and a synchronocity.

I believe deva realms are seen as the final goal of many religions but for the Buddha they are just a waystation on the path.
One definitely needs to be wary of the allure of deva becoming, but one of the reasons this contemplation is important for us is to be a buffer against the everyday worldly aspirations and lowering of standards so as to encourage the path development.
First of all when I see you posting these beautiful pictures I really understand how disturbing the Jatila/Matlock pic must have been for you! ;) Haha I really apologize! :anjali:

I had the mind-made body already as very young so every night I would consciously leave the body, remember from way back that I used to hold on to something like a rope in the mind and all of a sudden I was outside feeling my way through mazes of walls. Same thing every night. :)
I was born in Sweden but not to swedish parents (Hungarian/Slovak) so when I was like three or four years old and told my mother and family about a dream I had being up in the clouds hanging out with Tor (swedish name for the thunder/lightning god). No one could even understand how I could say such things about Thor since no one had said anything about Thor to me…ever. ;)
My affinity for Thor/Indra/Shango/Sakka is very deep I even have a pic of Thor and the Yoruba equivalent Shango together:

Image

I've also had thousands of lucid dreams and even more precognitive dreams.
Just an example below of how moral restraint is something really good to actually practice.
Maybe over 10 years ago when there was the Soccer World Cup me, my big brother, my big brother's wife and my mother were staying in my other big brother's house. I went in to one room to sleep a little. I left the body, experienced many things but at the very end of the dream I just heard men screaming ”viva mexico, viva mexico, viva mexico! in spanish in extreme joy.
I wake up, go outside to the living room. Without me even knowing, a soccer game on TV that day is about to start. Italy - Mexico.
Guess who won? ;)

So if I had no moral restraint I could easily bet money since this thing regarding sport events has happened many times after. Bottom line: Whatever I get to experience keeping Sila is always the number one thing to adhere to.

Another strange precognitive dream thing - seeing or encountering people first in dreams - perfect strangers I have never seen before and then meeting them later in the physical world…!
I really don't know the mechanics/workings of this thing, much like I no zero music theory but play several instruments but I'm so used to it that to me it is a natural thing.

Devas themselves can also warn humans in dreams about coming dangers so one can avoid going to a certain place one planned and so on. When I contemplate metta for fellow humans all over the world, be it in Somalia, Afghanistan, Cambodia, Peru anywhere really all continents etc. I say to myself: These human beings existence have more worth and beauty to them than all the beautiful flowers in all the heavens and likewise just the smile of one child on this earth is worth more than all the material things like expensive flashy big buildings, gold/diamonds, gadgets, cars whatever else that deep down inside is just worthless. :namaste:

But you are completely right, one should strive for higher than heaven that the other religions clearly see as the goal. But even the Buddha himself prior to his last birth here was in Tusita heaven. I'm not saying one should not strive but wise people really go to heaven.
And a heaven like Tusita where everyone is contented must be a really great place! :anjali:

If one enters the stream and only has a maximum of 7 existences left from entering the stream - from this point of view heaven is also great! :)
Cause_and_Effect
Posts: 1067
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:39 am

Re: Recollection of the Devas

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

sakka wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 2:13 pm

I had the mind-made body already as very young so every night I would consciously leave the body, remember from way back that I used to hold on to something like a rope in the mind and all of a sudden I was outside feeling my way through mazes of walls. Same thing every night. :)
I was born in Sweden but not to swedish parents (Hungarian/Slovak) so when I was like three or four years old and told my mother and family about a dream I had being up in the clouds hanging out with Tor (swedish name for the thunder/lightning god). No one could even understand how I could say such things about Thor since no one had said anything about Thor to me…ever. ;)
My affinity for Thor/Indra/Shango/Sakka is very deep I even have a pic of Thor and the Yoruba equivalent Shango together:

Image

That is great, so can I ask if you had used the mind-made body to travel beyond the world that we know? It would seem you also have the ability to visit some of these deva planes if you developed the skill. Ziewe reported that he had many encounters and even met some higher beings who taught him more advanced meditation methods to travel further and other kinds of knowledge. So it is not just for sight seeing!

I think working with the night meditations and lucid dream meditation is a really neglected aspect of dhamma practice and perhaps was not preserved much in the Pali suttas but existed in other early schools, surviving more in the Tibetan dream yoga practices, but it can easily be done in a Theravada context. The first Karmapa according to Tibetan Buddhism attained enlightenment while meditating doing dream yoga.

It seems your connection with Indra/Thor goes back far, it is a shame people today know him only as a superhero character and are not even aware that we are supposedly celebrating the day of Indra once a week as in Thors(Thurs)day. Perhaps this is as close as many in the modern western world get, they acknowledge without realizing it the gods but portray them only as superheroes.

People nowaday are missing this connection to the larger landscape of the cosmic community and the place where mythology and higher consciousness overlap.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 6231
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: Recollection of the Devas

Post by confusedlayman »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:21 am
sakka wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 2:13 pm

I had the mind-made body already as very young so every night I would consciously leave the body, remember from way back that I used to hold on to something like a rope in the mind and all of a sudden I was outside feeling my way through mazes of walls. Same thing every night. :)
I was born in Sweden but not to swedish parents (Hungarian/Slovak) so when I was like three or four years old and told my mother and family about a dream I had being up in the clouds hanging out with Tor (swedish name for the thunder/lightning god). No one could even understand how I could say such things about Thor since no one had said anything about Thor to me…ever. ;)
My affinity for Thor/Indra/Shango/Sakka is very deep I even have a pic of Thor and the Yoruba equivalent Shango together:

Image

That is great, so can I ask if you had used the mind-made body to travel beyond the world that we know? It would seem you also have the ability to visit some of these deva planes if you developed the skill. Ziewe reported that he had many encounters and even met some higher beings who taught him more advanced meditation methods to travel further and other kinds of knowledge. So it is not just for sight seeing!

I think working with the night meditations and lucid dream meditation is a really neglected aspect of dhamma practice and perhaps was not preserved much in the Pali suttas but existed in other early schools, surviving more in the Tibetan dream yoga practices, but it can easily be done in a Theravada context. The first Karmapa according to Tibetan Buddhism attained enlightenment while meditating doing dream yoga.

It seems your connection with Indra/Thor goes back far, it is a shame people today know him only as a superhero character and are not even aware that we are supposedly celebrating the day of Indra once a week as in Thors(Thurs)day. Perhaps this is as close as many in the modern western world get, they acknowledge without realizing it the gods but portray them only as superheroes.

People nowaday are missing this connection to the larger landscape of the cosmic community and the place where mythology and higher consciousness overlap.
I think u guys should stop hallucination and focus what's given in text. lucid dream or astral travel are hallucinations by Brian that only u can do. the next person sleeping nearby cant enter your world. but deva world is not like that. we can see monks enter same place sometimes and they do just like that without needing to sleep.
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
Cause_and_Effect
Posts: 1067
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:39 am

Re: Recollection of the Devas

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

confusedlayman wrote: I think u guys should stop hallucination and focus what's given in text. lucid dream or astral travel are hallucinations by Brian that only u can do. the next person sleeping nearby cant enter your world. but deva world is not like that. we can see monks enter same place sometimes and they do just like that without needing to sleep.
You are too dismissive of these possibilities.
If there is a way toward gaining knowledge and first hand experience of the depth consciousness or to experience astral worlds and Deva realms it should not be dismissed.
These methods are a part of almost every religious tradition including Buddhism.

Some have claimed the possibility of shared astral dreaming can happen also.

They can also be an inspiration and motivation on the path;
To attain lucid dreaming one needs to live a very present and conscious life and meditation practice helps.

Visiting some lucid dream scenes, even without astral travel is as close to experiencing first hand divine planes whilst alive on earth. It can be used for insight meditation during the night. It can be a further motivation to practice to transcend the worldly plane and enter the stream, through a confirmation of the planes of being the mind can realize.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
User avatar
Akashad
Posts: 325
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2018 2:00 am

Re: Recollection of the Devas

Post by Akashad »

[media] [/media]

I'm feeling super inspired by this practice at the moment.🙏
User avatar
NotMe
Posts: 455
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:41 pm

Re: Recollection of the Devas

Post by NotMe »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:13 am It seems this is not a popular practice in the West although advocated by the Buddha

…..
So any thoughts on how to practice it and how it was traditionally practiced, and why it tends not to be so popular?
Perhaps it is seen that reflection on devas may be an obstacle in some way even though the suttas indicate the practice 'leads to concentration'. The practice is also about recollecting the qualities that give rise to Noble birth, that is faith, virtue, learning, generosity, and wisdom.
I am on my first cup of coffee and not fully awake yet <grin> and have not read all the posts but I will. I am just responding as if this is the first response forgive me.

It is promoted at Wat Metta by Ajaan Geoff. Other than chanting this, and reading how the Naga shaded he Buddha, etc., one can just be aware of their potential participation in our lives. Be mindful of those times when perhaps we were helped. It may happen more than we are aware.

I love this sutta:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

It shows how they’re actual guardian angels, not their full time job as the deva states, but they do care for our well being. There is probably a balance between how much we care for them and how much they care for us.

If you are familiar with the Thai culture, the worship has gone off the tracks. Here in the west, it’s not even on the tracks, as the OP stated.

The west is all about the material the Rupa. This is our crime this is our “sin”. We must gaze upon the world with an open mind and be aware there is more than we may imagine.

Don’t we all have that deva on one shoulder saying “just do it” and on the other “best to contemplate your actions” ?

Refine that conversation, then open your eyes to see they are perched throughout this world doing their thing. As the OP states, it is about doing all those Noble recollections of our actions and the results.

Mara is the easiest to spot. The best ones are oh so subtle. I think the key is just gnosis and vision that they are real they are here and we should not ignore them.

Metta

:anjali:

Edit to add: Their qualities can be as spotty as ours, they have a sense of humor, some of them are tricksters, it all depends on how you live your life. That determines the ones that hover around you and how you may benefit.
wenjaforever
Posts: 390
Joined: Tue May 24, 2022 4:44 am

Re: Recollection of the Devas

Post by wenjaforever »

Dharma means revelation of the truth. The deva realms or heaven were explained by the Buddha so we could understand the significance and weight of how unfathomable nirvana and the jhanalokas are. If you don't have an understanding about what heaven is all about, it would be impossible to imagine and to understand what a Buddha really is. If we understood that devas in Yama heaven develop superpowers, we could also understand how the beings in tusita or 5th heaven are immensely powerful and blissful. If we could understand how we live like kings in tavatimsa, we could understand that life in the world is truly suffering. Only then can we understand how Brahmas are immensely powerful and content.
money is worthless toilet paper • the tongue has no bone (a person might say one thing but it cannot be further from the truth) • you cannot teach a goat math as in you cannot teach the dhamma to a dumb person
Post Reply