Recollection of the Devas

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Cause_and_Effect
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Re: Recollection of the Devas

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

There seems to be a modern secular view that has become common sometimes that the Devas were not real.
I generally have no issue with it, if in people's minds they equate the existence of god's with 'superstition' and wish to reinterpret it as for example the wealthy only or in some other way.

It is however too close for me to the common worldling attitude of deification of celebrities, who are ubiquitous and do indeed manifest such 'deva-like' qualities such as being omnipresent through variagated media and basically worshipped,a fleeting and gross counterpart of a Deva existence.

Another common reinterpretation among western Buddhism is that the various heavens and hells are merely descriptions of mind-states.
Again this may be an acceptable practical interpretation as indeed the the higher and lower realms do have counterparts within the mind.

However from a strict sutta perspective it is not correct.

The existance of devas is included in the very frequent epitath of the Buddha:

"The Blessed One is an Arahant, a Perfectly Enlightened One, possessed of true knowledge and conduct, an exalted one, a Knower of the Worlds, unsurpassed trainer of persons to be tamed, teacher of devas and humans, enlightened, the Awakened One."

Furthermore it clear that the Buddha's opening the door to stream entry ensures that one cannot fall into the planes of deprivation, that is below the realms of devas or human as it is frequently defined.

The reflection on the devas is described also as a benefit of holding the Uposatha observance (8 precepts).

"When this Uposatha of the Noble Ones is undertaken, it is of great fruit & great benefit, of great glory & great radiance. And how is it of great fruit & great benefit, of great glory & great radiance?..."

"A human century is equal to one day & night among the Devas of the Thirty-Three. Thirty such days & nights make a month... One thousand such heavenly years constitute the life-span among the Devas of the Thirty-three. Now, it is possible that a certain man or woman — from having observed this Uposatha endowed with eight factors — on the break-up of the body, after death, might be reborn among the Devas of the Thirty-three. It was in reference to this that it was said, 'Kingship over human beings is a meager thing when compared with heavenly bliss.'"

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

In terms of attainment of the higher devas realms beyond this, they have counterparts to jhana as they are described as requisite condition for rebirth there and the exponential rewards of kamma.

"There is the case where an individual, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He savors that, longs for that, finds satisfaction through that. Staying there — fixed on that, dwelling there often, not falling away from that — then when he dies he reappears in conjunction with the devas of Brahma's retinue. The devas of Brahma's retinue, monks, have a life-span of an eon. An ordinary worldling having stayed there, having used up all the life-span of those devas, goes to hell, to the animal womb, to the state of the hungry shades. But a disciple of the Blessed One, having stayed there, having used up all the life-span of those devas, is unbound right in that state of being. This, monks, is the difference, this the distinction, this the distinguishing factor, between an educated disciple of the noble ones and an uneducated worldling, when there is a destination, a reappearing."

"Again, there is the case where an individual, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. He savors that, longs for that, finds satisfaction through that. Staying there — fixed on that, dwelling there often, not falling away from that — then when he dies he reappears in conjunction with the Abhassara devas.The Abhassara devas, monks, have a life-span of two eons...

"Again, there is the case where an individual, with the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' He savors that, longs for that, finds satisfaction through that. Staying there — fixed on that, dwelling there often, not falling away from that — then when he dies he reappears in conjunction with the Subhakinha devas. The Subhakinha devas, monks, have a life-span of four eons..."

"Again, there is the case where an individual, with the abandoning of pleasure & stress — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. He savors that, longs for that, finds satisfaction through that. Staying there — fixed on that, dwelling there often, not falling away from that — then when he dies he reappears in conjunction with the Vehapphala devas. The Vehapphala devas, monks, have a life-span of 500 eons.."


https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

This then leads to the overall description of the various levels of being.
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"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
BrokenBones
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Re: Recollection of the Devas

Post by BrokenBones »

There's a sutta somewhere, where an approaching group of young, good looking, wealthy and heedless youths are compared as similar to the gods of the 33... people can believe what they want but only a complete idiot would deny that the Buddha actually taught the existence of heavens and hells.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Recollection of the Devas

Post by Ceisiwr »

BrokenBones wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 4:45 am There's a sutta somewhere, where an approaching group of young, good looking, wealthy and heedless youths are compared as similar to the gods of the 33... people can believe what they want but only a complete idiot would deny that the Buddha actually taught the existence of heavens and hells.
:goodpost:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
un8-
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Re: Recollection of the Devas

Post by un8- »

BrokenBones wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 4:45 am There's a sutta somewhere, where an approaching group of young, good looking, wealthy and heedless youths are compared as similar to the gods of the 33... people can believe what they want but only a complete idiot would deny that the Buddha actually taught the existence of heavens and hells.

I think the confusion is the mundane vs supermundane.

The Supermundane right view teaching is not based on rebirth, it's based on suffering here and now. When this problem is fixed it also affects the mundane level which deals with rebirth.

However, atheist Buddhists like Buddhaddassa take that to mean the Buddha didn't teach rebirth, but actually there's a sutta that says even though the Dhamma is to be experienced here-and-now, rebirth does indeed exist. I've shown this sutta to Atheist Buddhists but they willfully ignore it.

The Buddha did teach that devas and rebirth are true, but thankfully belief in it isn't required because the Buddha isn't dogmatic and he doesn't expect you to believe something you can't confirm via experience.
Well sir, I can’t even recall with features and details what I’ve undergone in this incarnation. How should I possibly recollect my many kinds of past lives with features and details, like the Buddha? For I can’t even see a mud-goblin right now. How should I possibly, with clairvoyance that is purified and superhuman, see sentient beings passing away and being reborn, like the Buddha? But then the Buddha told me, ‘Nevertheless, Udāyī, leave aside the past and the future. I shall teach you the Dhamma:

“When this exists, that is; due to the arising of this, that arises. When this doesn’t exist, that is not; due to the cessation of this, that ceases.”’ But that is even more unclear to me. Perhaps I might satisfy the Buddha by answering a question about my own teacher’s doctrine.”
https://suttacentral.net/mn79/en/sujato
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Pulsar
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Re: Recollection of the Devas

Post by Pulsar »

Mr Albatross wrote
Though it's true that "all the hells and heavens exist in the range of the six sense bases", this is not what the Kajjaniya Sutta says. What it says is that all who recall their former lives are merely recalling past occurrences of the five aggregates.
Kajjaniya says that whatever thoughts enter your mind regarding future, present, or past are only workings of the five aggregates, for the puthujjana. That is how I Understand Kajjaniya. So if someone thinks there are other realms is that not happening in your aggregates? Is that not mental proliferation according to Kajjaniya?
You wrote
The sutta, as far as it goes, has no bearing on the question of whether heavens or hells exist as distinct realms of existence.
It does. Elsewhere SN 35.146 says: 'Whatever action by body, speech or mind"? falls in the range of 6 sense bases. "thinking there are gods" falls in this category.
By the wrong procedures engendered at the construction of imagination, asavas or mental proliferation's result.
There is no one the producer.
You wrote
The most that one can say on the basis of the Kajjaniya Sutta taken alone is that if there are heaven realms and hell realms, and if someone recalls a former life in one of them, then all his memories will be memories of past form, feeling, perception, formations and consciousness. The sutta certainly offers no support for a view like Ajahn Buddhadasa's, that heavens and hells are nothing more than names for intense states of pleasure and pain in the present life.
I have no idea what V. Buddhadasa thought, but OP is not about Buddhadasa.
But based on Kajjaniya and the teachings of six sense bases in Salayatana, I conclude that gods, ghosts, states of deprivation and whatever other realms one can think of, or are listed,
they all exist due to the information inflow at the six sense bases.
And elsewhere Buddha has said "this Dhamma is immediate, to be experienced here and now"
And Kalama says check out the teachings yourself. Don't be blind followers.
My Dear Albatross: Have you experienced gods? I have not, but I have experienced states of deprivation, when I lost a loved one.
Not everything written in Sutta pitaka was a teaching of Buddha. Sutta Pitaka is part mythology.
I commented mostly because I was curious about Sangarava Sutta. No one seems to have paid attention to that.
Be well :candle:
Bundokji
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Re: Recollection of the Devas

Post by Bundokji »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 2:02 pm Seeing as the teaching here is addressed to the householder Mahanama. Yet today most lay people study the Pali texts but in the Buddha's day much of the Canon was taught only to monastics with only certain discourses given to lay persons.
The distinction between lay people and monastics is interesting. As a general rule, monastics aim at enlightenment or ending the cycle of birth and death while lay people can work on attaining higher states in future lives.

What do you think the effects of this distinction on the practice including the recollection of devas?

The monk would always answer in the negative when presented with higher states of existence. It seems that saying "no" while seeking extinguishing might not guarantee cessation, but has higher planes as its fruits, and some kind of protection if one falls lower due to developing dispassion in relation to sensuality.

For the lay follower, seeking higher states motivated by greed, fear and delusion is common. Followers of other religions practice morality and abstain from wrong doing in order to attain better/higher future states. In that regard, the effectiveness of the Buddhist method (in comparison with other religions) would be contingent to having this model of the cosmos to be more objectively true, which seems to be the basis for sectarianism, considering that all constructions lack ultimate truth.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
asahi
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Re: Recollection of the Devas

Post by asahi »

Pulsar wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 1:42 am
According to that teaching all the hells and heavens exist in the range of the six sense bases.
That is exactly so . All existence including yourself are in the range of the six sense bases . Human realm and animals realm are both in it .
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Cause_and_Effect
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Re: Recollection of the Devas

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Pulsar wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 1:42 am
  • As far as Buddha was concerned his primary concern was the ending of suffering.
Even if there are gods, they are creatures, that cannot even help themselves. If they could, what are they doing in heaven? Heaven could crash any second.
Only the 8-fold path can help in the tapering, and vanishing of suffering.
As I said before, there is no issue if one does not want to believe in gods. The practice is the thing, gods cannot help you do this.
Pulsar wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 1:42 am It is far far better to be born human, because it is only as a human that one can engage in the 8-fold path.
This is not quite accurate.
The human realm is the most conducive to practice as it is the best mix of pleasure and pain. But many human births are misfortunate and overcome with suffering with little access or opportunity to practice the Dhamma.

Furthermore, one is sometimes able to practice the 8-fold path in Deva realms also. This is why the Canon records interactions of the devas asking the Buddha for guidance and teaching. If one is a stream-enterer and is reborn in a deva plane one will continue ones practice and progress on the path.
Non-returners are those whom arise among the gods of the pure abodes and continue their practice until their final fetters are fully abandoned, and attain to Nibbana directly from that world.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
Pulsar
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Re: Recollection of the Devas

Post by Pulsar »

Cause_and_effect wrote
The human realm is the most conducive to practice as it is the best mix of pleasure and pain.
No disagreement here.
But many human births are misfortunate and overcome with suffering with little access or opportunity to practice the Dhamma.
No disagreement here either, do we not agree that heaven and hell are found in the range of six sense bases? Joyful heavens and states of deprivation, (metaphorically).
Furthermore, one is sometimes able to practice the 8-fold path in Deva realms also.
Which times are those? which god wants to renounce? the second factor of the 8-fold path involves renunciation. First factor involves not clinging to a self. Which god does not want to cling to the idea of a god? Or is the god wishing to be human? a case of being stuck on a self.
This is why the Canon records interactions of the devas asking the Buddha for guidance and teaching.
Do you believe everything the canon says? Buddha did not write the canon.
  • Suttas were written based on fragments of Buddha's sayings floating around.
The canon also says Buddha practiced Arupa samapathhis, but contradicts this admission in other suttas.
Anyhow you seem to be a fan of these Hinduistic meditations, based on your praise of Ayya Khema and Leigh B. elsewhere. Those were practiced way before MahaMaya conceived the little prince Siddhartha.
Can you explain how one can dismantle DO using Arupas? If this was possible Alara Kalama and the crowd would have already done so? Why were they stuck in Samsara?
Be well! :candle:
asahi
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Re: Recollection of the Devas

Post by asahi »

Can we say some of the followers of hinduism , taoism , Islamic and Christianity are actually practising part of devata recollection ?! :shrug:
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sphairos
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Re: Recollection of the Devas

Post by sphairos »

In this sutta the Buddha simply says that those beings are essentially unreal.

They are produced by causes and conditions and do not partake in Nirvāṇa. So they are essentially not different that sticks and stones around us. This is the message of that recollection.
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How true are your ways?
Cause_and_Effect
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Re: Recollection of the Devas

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Pulsar wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 12:46 pm Which times are those? which god wants to renounce? the second factor of the 8-fold path involves renunciation. First factor involves not clinging to a self. Which god does not want to cling to the idea of a god?
The gods come in many kinds as do humans. There are some who have such discernment who heed the Buddha's teachings and try to practice the 8-fold path.
Also as stated the Pure Abode devas all practice and are destined for Nibbana.
Pulsar wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 12:46 pm Do you believe everything the canon says? Buddha did not write the canon.
There are too many suttas and verses throughout the Canon proclaiming the existence of devas to have any doubt about the matter.

One cannot pick and choose at will which parts of the Canon to subscribe to. There has to be a basis of reason if one is to exclude a particular part.
I do not think the entire Canon is authoritative. For example the mount meru mythology is clearly a later addition inserted into the Anguttara Nikaya and shared with both Jain and Hindu sources.

However I do not consider the Buddha's descriptions of the higher planes of being to be simply mythological but a description of his knowledge accessable by the faculty of the Divine eye. It is an account of the extended cosmology known to a Buddha. Similar to his vision of the many aeons of cosmic expansion and contraction when recollecting his past lives (I.e. infinite big bang - big crunch), I see it as part of the greater reality that he had direct perception of.
Pulsar wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 12:46 pm Suttas were written based on fragments of Buddha's sayings floating around.
I wouldn't put it like this. More like recitations that had been carefully standardized and preserved for centuries by the Sangha. There would have been some alteration and addition or ommision in some parts.
Pulsar wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 12:46 pm The canon also says Buddha practiced Arupa samapathhis, but contradicts this admission in other suttas.
The Buddha practiced the Arupa formless attainments. Your statement is contradictory to the history of Buddhism and the Buddha's quest for Nibbana.
Ask yourself, how would he have known that the method taught by Alara Kalama and the formless Base of Nothingness did not lead to Nibbana unless he practiced it to reach that attainment? This was part of his journey studying under Alara Kalama.

The task of a future Buddha is to attain to all of the stations of consciousness and to discern their destinations and which ones can reach the deathless. Without doing this other sectarians would be able to claim that there were attainments he didn't know about which led to the final goal but he was able to refute them from experience.

So the formless attainments are included in the Buddha's teaching, even though in practice only up until the fourth jhana is usually encouraged as a practice.

Pulsar wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 12:46 pm these Hinduistic meditations, based on your praise of Ayya Khema and Leigh B. elsewhere.
This is simply your view of their practice without basis, but it belongs in another discussion thread. Personally I practice according to the Ajahn Lee/Thannissaro method.
Pulsar wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 12:46 pm Can you explain how one can dismantle DO using Arupas? If this was possible Alara Kalama and the crowd would have already done so? Why were they stuck in Samsara?
This has been explained in the Canon, you can look into it.
There is a sutta attributed to Ven. Ananda where formless attainments up until the base of nothingness can be used for insight practice and to attain final release.

"Then again, a monk — with the complete transcending of perceptions of [physical] form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, and not heeding perceptions of diversity, [perceiving,] 'Infinite space' — enters & remains in the dimension of the infinity of space. He reflects on this and discerns, 'This attainment of the infinity of space is fabricated & intended. Now whatever is fabricated & intended is inconstant & subject to cessation.' Staying right there, he reaches the ending of the mental fermentations. Or, if not, then — through this very Dhamma-passion, this Dhamma-delight, and from the total wasting away of the first five Fetters — he is due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, never again to return from that world."

"This too, householder, is a single quality declared by the Blessed One — the one who knows, the one who sees, worthy & rightly self-awakened — where the unreleased mind of a monk who dwells there heedful, ardent, & resolute becomes released, or his unended fermentations go to their total ending, or he attains the unexcelled security from bonds that he had not attained before."

https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn ... .than.html
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Recollection of the Devas

Post by Ceisiwr »

sphairos wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 2:04 pm In this sutta the Buddha simply says that those beings are essentially unreal.

They are produced by causes and conditions and do not partake in Nirvāṇa. So they are essentially not different that sticks and stones around us. This is the message of that recollection.
All beings are ultimately unreal. The meditation is one that takes conventional reality.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Recollection of the Devas

Post by Ceisiwr »

asahi wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 1:57 pm Can we say some of the followers of hinduism , taoism , Islamic and Christianity are actually practising part of devata recollection ?! :shrug:
Why not? St Aquinas seems to have had an experience of Jhana, or at least access concentration, after Mass.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
asahi
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Re: Recollection of the Devas

Post by asahi »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Aug 08, 2021 2:25 am
asahi wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 1:57 pm Can we say some of the followers of hinduism , taoism , Islamic and Christianity are actually practising part of devata recollection ?! :shrug:
Why not? St Aquinas seems to have had an experience of Jhana, or at least access concentration, after Mass.
So is Jesus and Muhammad but probably belongs to kama loka or realms . Jesus was celibate surely has higher attaintment than Muhammad where he got many wives .
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