Recollection of the Devas

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Cause_and_Effect
Posts: 1067
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:39 am

Recollection of the Devas

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

It seems this is not a popular practice in the West although advocated by the Buddha
"You should recollect the devas: 'There are the devas of the Four Great Kings, the devas of the Thirty-three, the devas of the Hours, the Contented Devas, the devas who delight in creation, the devas who have power over the creations of others, the devas of Brahma's retinue, the devas beyond them.

Whatever conviction they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of conviction is present in me as well.

Whatever virtue they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of virtue is present in me as well.

Whatever learning they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of learning is present in me as well.

Whatever generosity they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of generosity is present in me as well.

Whatever discernment they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of discernment is present in me as well.'

At any time when a disciple of the noble ones is recollecting the conviction, virtue, learning, generosity, and discernment found both in himself and the devas, his mind is not overcome with passion, not overcome with aversion, not overcome with delusion. His mind heads straight, based on the (qualities of the) devas.

And when the mind is headed straight, the disciple of the noble ones gains a sense of the goal, gains a sense of the Dhamma, gains joy connected with the Dhamma. In one who is joyful, rapture arises. In one who is rapturous, the body grows calm. One whose body is calmed senses pleasure. In one sensing pleasure, the mind becomes concentrated.

"Mahanama, you should develop this recollection of the devas while you are walking, while you are standing, while you are sitting, while you are lying down, while you are busy at work, while you are resting in your home crowded with children."


https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/stu ... s.html#six

So any thoughts on how to practice it and how it was traditionally practiced, and why it tends not to be so popular?
Perhaps it is seen that reflection on devas may be an obstacle in some way even though the suttas indicate the practice 'leads to concentration'. The practice is also about recollecting the qualities that give rise to Noble birth, that is faith, virtue, learning, generosity, and wisdom.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
un8-
Posts: 747
Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2021 6:49 am

Re: Recollection of the Devas

Post by un8- »

It's all about relativity to the person's purification level. Practicality as well, it's like climbing a ladder or walking a path, makes it easier to break down the goal into steps, so from Mahanama's perspective, or someone who is a faith-follower who is still trying to perfect virtue, using Devas as an object of contemplation is more suitable.

It's easy for someone to relate to another human, than a deva. It's easier to relate to a deva than a Buddha. Being human is not really a good thing as the average human has poor virtue, whereas the average deva has way better virtue.

So contemplating a deva is an easier and more relatable "stepping stone" to contemplating the Buddha, who is on a Supermundane level, whereas Humans and Devas are on a mundane level (virtue).
Then the Blessed One, leaving the road, went to sit at the root of a certain tree — his legs crossed, his body erect, with mindfulness established to the fore. Then Dona, following the Blessed One's footprints, saw him sitting at the root of the tree: confident, inspiring confidence, his senses calmed, his mind calmed, having attained the utmost control & tranquility, tamed, guarded, his senses restrained, a naga.[1] On seeing him, he went to him and said, "Master, are you a deva?"[2]

"No, brahman, I am not a deva."

"Are you a gandhabba?"

"No..."

"... a yakkha?"

"No..."

"... a human being?"

"No, brahman, I am not a human being."

"When asked, 'Are you a deva?' you answer, 'No, brahman, I am not a deva.' When asked, 'Are you a gandhabba?' you answer, 'No, brahman, I am not a gandhabba.' When asked, 'Are you a yakkha?' you answer, 'No, brahman, I am not a yakkha.' When asked, 'Are you a human being?' you answer, 'No, brahman, I am not a human being.' Then what sort of being are you?"

"Brahman, the fermentations by which — if they were not abandoned — I would be a deva: Those are abandoned by me, their root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. The fermentations by which — if they were not abandoned — I would be a gandhabba... a yakkha... a human being: Those are abandoned by me, their root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
Bundokji
Posts: 6494
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:57 pm

Re: Recollection of the Devas

Post by Bundokji »

The devas, as having superior qualities and abilities to humans, are a reflexive tool to our inspiration to go higher, and to being confronted with the reality of impermanence.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
Cause_and_Effect
Posts: 1067
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:39 am

Re: Recollection of the Devas

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Bundokji wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 9:52 am The devas, as having superior qualities and abilities to humans, are a reflexive tool to our inspiration to go higher, and to being confronted with the reality of impermanence.
It would seem also since the general view of gods and the reality of the divine realms and higher orders of being is not so prevalent now, these practices unfortunately become lesser.

Sakka/Indra/Thor is mentioned frequently in the Canon as the King of the gods and there is the Dhammapada verse

"With Vigilance,
Indra became the greatest of the gods;
The gods praise vigilance,
Forever neglecting negligence"


The popularity of focus on the 'intermediate steps' on the way to Nibbana would certainly be able to make the Dhamma appeal to a larger demographic and maybe benefit their path development more and secure interest and motivation.

Seeing as the teaching here is addressed to the householder Mahanama. Yet today most lay people study the Pali texts but in the Buddha's day much of the Canon was taught only to monastics with only certain discourses given to lay persons.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22391
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: Recollection of the Devas

Post by Ceisiwr »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:13 am It seems this is not a popular practice in the West although advocated by the Buddha

The Visuddhimagga would be a good place to start: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... on2011.pdf
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Pulsar
Posts: 2641
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Recollection of the Devas

Post by Pulsar »

Cause_and _effect wrote
in the Buddha's day much of the Canon was taught only to monastics with only certain discourses given to lay persons.
Where in the canon did you read this?
From what I gathered, Dependent Origination was taught to layman. Canon of Buddha's day I assume was far more limited. Think of all the multiplications that took place after Buddha's day and the fake suttas added to Nikayas. Have you read Numerical Discourses? The content of several suttas are repeated from sevens, to eights, to nines.
A laywoman had memorized the entire Parayanavagga, reports the Pali canon. Do you know it by heart? What more does a lay person need to achieve that "Eye of Dhamma?".

Bundokji wrote
The devas, as having superior qualities and abilities to humans, are a reflexive tool to our inspiration to go higher, and to being confronted with the reality of impermanence.
I agree with this sentiment.
Think of the many times when 1st jhana or second jhana etc are compared to variously named Deva worlds. A nice carrot for those thirsting for deva worlds. There is a lot of Mythology included in the canon. People love tales of gods, just like kids love fairy tales.
Be well! :candle:
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 12032
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Recollection of the Devas

Post by DooDoot »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:13 am It seems this is not a popular practice in the West although advocated by the Buddha
You should recollect the devas: 'There are the devas of the Four Great Kings, the devas of the Thirty-three, the devas of the Hours, the Contented Devas, the devas who delight in creation, the devas who have power over the creations of others, the devas of Brahma's retinue, the devas beyond them.
There is no evidence the above was advocated by the Buddha because the above basically is the manifesting of self-views or "jati" ("birth"). "Jati" is defined as the production of beings in a category of beings. SN 5.10 says this production of views of "beings" is the activity of Mara (Satan).

In reality, recollection of devas means the recollection of the rich & powerful.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8150
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Recollection of the Devas

Post by Coëmgenu »

Those who don't believe in the gods have to reinterpret them as rich and famous celebrity humans.

Oṁ Kimberly Kardashian.

Oṁ Bill Gates.

Svāhā!

:meditate:
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
BrokenBones
Posts: 1783
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:20 am

Re: Recollection of the Devas

Post by BrokenBones »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 8:14 pm
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:13 am It seems this is not a popular practice in the West although advocated by the Buddha
You should recollect the devas: 'There are the devas of the Four Great Kings, the devas of the Thirty-three, the devas of the Hours, the Contented Devas, the devas who delight in creation, the devas who have power over the creations of others, the devas of Brahma's retinue, the devas beyond them.
There is no evidence the above was advocated by the Buddha because the above basically is the manifesting of self-views or "jati" ("birth"). "Jati" is defined as the production of beings in a category of beings. SN 5.10 says this production of views of "beings" is the activity of Mara (Satan).

In reality, recollection of devas means the recollection of the rich & powerful.
You mean people like Hilary Clinton, Donald Trump and Kim Jong-Un... well... if you think it'll work... I'll give it a go 🧘
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8150
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Recollection of the Devas

Post by Coëmgenu »

Oṁprah.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Mr Albatross
Posts: 44
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:19 pm

Re: Recollection of the Devas

Post by Mr Albatross »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 8:14 pm In reality, recollection of devas means the recollection of the rich & powerful.
Then why did the Buddha call it devatānussati, rather than devānussati?

Devas and devi's can be gods and goddesses, or kings and queens, or male and female arahants, but devatās can only be gods.
Pulsar
Posts: 2641
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Recollection of the Devas

Post by Pulsar »

DDD wrote
In reality, recollection of devas means the recollection of the rich & powerful.
Quite so my Dearest DDD, think of Kajjaniya sutta. According to that teaching all the hells and heavens exist in the range of the six sense bases.
One person's imagination can run riot and think that god is Kimberly Kardashian or Bill Gates, or another may think god is Hilary Clinton, Donald Trump and Kim Jong-Un.
Has anyone on DW seen heavenly gods?
Rich and the powerful to one person may be another person's nightmare.
I really don't know whether Buddha ever addressed this issue.
Brahmin Bharadvaja accused Buddha of failing to give a direct reply when asked whether there are gods.
MN 100 Sangarava Sutta.
When asked "Are there gods?" Buddha replied "it is known to me to be the case, Bharadvaja, that there are gods"
That now sounds like an evasive reply to me. VBB says this part of the sutta is corrupt. Apparently K.R. Norman reconstructed the sutta. I cannot find it right now.
From what I recall (my memory may be faulty) Norman interpreted it as a negative.
But Analayo interpreted as a positive. But I don't trust V. Analayo. He has misinterpreted the entire
soteriology of Satipatthana. How can he be trusted regarding the existence of gods?
In another sutta (I cannot remember the exact sutta) some people tell Buddha, that their relatives died and went to heaven.
Buddha asks them "Did they come back and tell you so?" So I figure that was a joke to the Buddha.
  • As far as Buddha was concerned his primary concern was the ending of suffering.
Even if there are gods, they are creatures, that cannot even help themselves. If they could, what are they doing in heaven? Heaven could crash any second.
Only the 8-fold path can help in the tapering, and vanishing of suffering.
It is far far better to be born human, because it is only as a human that one can engage in the 8-fold path.
Best :candle:
thomaslaw
Posts: 812
Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2013 12:55 am
Location: Australia

Re: Recollection of the Devas

Post by thomaslaw »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:13 am It seems this is not a popular practice in the West although advocated by the Buddha

...

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/stu ... s.html#six

So any thoughts on how to practice it and how it was traditionally practiced, and why it tends not to be so popular?
Perhaps it is seen that reflection on devas may be an obstacle in some way even though the suttas indicate the practice 'leads to concentration'. The practice is also about recollecting the qualities that give rise to Noble birth, that is faith, virtue, learning, generosity, and wisdom.
It seems recollection of the Devas in AN is not found in the major teachings in the SN/SA suttas for monks.

But in SN 55.34-5 (=SA 847-8) (in Sotapatti Samyutta) the Buddha teaches cattāri devānaṃ deva-padāni “the four deva-paths to the heavens” and devānaṃ devapadan “a deva-path to the heavens”.

The four deva-paths to the heavens are “definite faith” aveccappasāda in the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Saṅgha, and possessing “noble morality” ariyakanta-sīla, i.e. the five precepts (SN 55.28-9 = SA 845-6).

The deva-path to the heavens is about knowing “non-malice” abyāpajjha as “the highest” parame for the deva-path.
Mr Albatross
Posts: 44
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:19 pm

Re: Recollection of the Devas

Post by Mr Albatross »

Pulsar wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 1:42 am Quite so my Dearest DDD, think of Kajjaniya sutta. According to that teaching all the hells and heavens exist in the range of the six sense bases.
Though it's true that "all the hells and heavens exist in the range of the six sense bases", this is not what the Kajjaniya Sutta says. What it says is that all who recall their former lives are merely recalling past occurrences of the five aggregates.

The sutta, as far as it goes, has no bearing on the question of whether heavens or hells exist as distinct realms of existence. The most that one can say on the basis of the Kajjaniya Sutta taken alone is that if there are heaven realms and hell realms, and if someone recalls a former life in one of them, then all his memories will be memories of past form, feeling, perception, formations and consciousness. The sutta certainly offers no support for a view like Ajahn Buddhadasa's, that heavens and hells are nothing more than names for intense states of pleasure and pain in the present life.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22391
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: Recollection of the Devas

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pulsar wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 1:42 am
Quite so my Dearest DDD, think of Kajjaniya sutta. According to that teaching all the hells and heavens exist in the range of the six sense bases.
And?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Post Reply