the great rebirth debate

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Coëmgenu
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Rebirth Debate

Post by Coëmgenu »

A user posted a quotation from the Mahākammavibhaṅgasutta at MN 136, but as usual it was selectively quoted with the context left out and missing:
18. (iv) "Now there is the person who has abstained from killing living beings here... has had right view. And on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in the states of deprivation, in an unhappy destination, in perdition, in hell. MN136
Taken in isolation, it is a bizarre statement that someone with right view goes to hell potentially on account of their right view. It can also be taken to state that good deeds have no corresponding bright karma. Neither of these are correct readings. Here is the full context of the sections of that sutta dealing with a "person who has abstained from killing," etc., and who has "right view," starting at where it outlines the four persons and their destinations:
“Ānanda, these four people are found in the world. What four?

[1] Some person here kills living creatures, steals, and commits sexual misconduct. They use speech that’s false, divisive, harsh, or nonsensical. And they’re covetous, malicious, and have wrong view. When their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in a place of loss, a bad place, the underworld, hell.

[2] But some other person here kills living creatures, steals, and commits sexual misconduct. They use speech that’s false, divisive, harsh, or nonsensical. And they’re covetous, malicious, and have wrong view. When their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in a good place, a heavenly realm.

[3] But some other person here refrains from killing living creatures, stealing, committing sexual misconduct, or using speech that’s false, divisive, harsh, or nonsensical. And they’re contented, kind-hearted, and have right view. When their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in a good place, a heavenly realm.

[4] But some other person here refrains from killing living creatures, stealing, committing sexual misconduct, or using speech that’s false, divisive, harsh, or nonsensical. And they’re contented, kind-hearted, and have right view. When their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in a place of loss, a bad place, the underworld, hell.
The quoted section is dealing with person 4, who obeys the precepts, has right view, and goes to hell. Of that person, the Buddha explains:
Take some ascetic or brahmin who with clairvoyance sees a person here who refrained from killing living creatures … and had right view. And they see that that person is reborn in hell. They say: ‘It seems that there is no such thing as good deeds, and the result of good conduct. For I have seen a person here who refrained from killing living creatures … and had right view. And I saw that that person was reborn in hell.’ They say: ‘It seems that everyone who refrains from killing living creatures … and has right view is reborn in hell. Those who know this are right. Those who know something else are wrong.’ And so they obstinately stick to what they have known, seen, and understood for themselves, insisting that: ‘This is the only truth, other ideas are silly.’
The Buddha clarifies that this is not correct:
In this case, when an ascetic or brahmin says this: ‘It seems that there is no such thing as good deeds, and the result of good conduct,’ I don’t grant them that. But when they say: ‘I have seen a person here who refrained from killing living creatures … and had right view. And after death, they were reborn in hell,’ I grant them that. But when they say: ‘It seems that everyone who refrains from killing living creatures … and has right view is reborn in hell,’ I don’t grant them that. But when they say: ‘Those who know this are right. Those who know something else are wrong,’ I also don’t grant them that. And when they obstinately stick to what they have known, seen, and understood for themselves, insisting that: ‘This is the only truth, other ideas are silly,’ I also don’t grant them that. Why is that? Because the Realized One’s knowledge of the great analysis of deeds is otherwise.
So we know that foolish statements about "all good deeds are naught" is not the point of this passage. The Buddha gives his final definitive explanation toward the end of the sutta as to why someone would observe morality and right view and go to hell:
Now, Ānanda, take the case of the person here who refrained from killing living creatures … and had right view, and who is reborn in hell. They must have done a bad deed to be experienced as painful either previously or later, or else at the time of death they undertook wrong view. And that’s why, when their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in a place of loss, a bad place, the underworld, hell. But anyone here who refrains from killing living creatures … and has right view experiences the result of that in the present life, or in the next life, or in some subsequent period. So, Ānanda, there are deeds that are ineffective and appear ineffective. There are deeds that are ineffective but appear effective. There are deeds that are effective and appear effective. And there are deeds that are effective but appear ineffective.”

That is what the Buddha said. Satisfied, Venerable Ānanda was happy with what the Buddha said.
(emphasis added, also numbering in [square brackets])

There is your answer. The path to hell is paved with wicked actions driven by hellish intentions and either the non-reaching of right view or the forsaking of right view previously held.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: 'drink and drugs that cause carelessness'

Post by pitithefool »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:00 pm
Nice :thanks: :twothumbsup:
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Re: Rebirth Debate

Post by DooDoot »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:31 pm A user posted a quotation from the Mahākammavibhaṅgasutta at MN 136, but as usual it was selectively quoted with the context left out and missing:
18. (iv) "Now there is the person who has abstained from killing living beings here... has had right view. And on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in the states of deprivation, in an unhappy destination, in perdition, in hell. MN136
Taken in isolation, it is a bizarre statement that someone with right view goes to hell potentially on account of their right view. It can also be taken to state that good deeds have no corresponding bright karma. Neither of these are correct readings. Here is the full context of the sections of that sutta dealing with a "person who has abstained from killing," etc., and who has "right view," starting at where it outlines the four persons and their destinations:
The above appears to be a misunderstanding, again. One can continue to choose to not learn and to continue to revile & subvert the learned who help others. MN 136 presents four scenarios. Two are standard & two are non-standard.

1. Do bad, follow on to (upapajjati) bad. Example, revile the Noble and continue to remain stupid or even get stupider.

2. Do good, follow on to good. Example, honor the Noble and increase in knowledge.

3. Do bad, follow on to good. Example, dispute the wise and learn from their correction of your errors.

4. Do good, follow on to bad. Place faith in Dhamma, learn right view but still have too many hindrances from past kamma to gain peace of heart.

If one had concentration and was following the discussion, it was scenario #4 that was being discussed rather than scenario #1.

:focus:
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Re: Rebirth Debate

Post by Coëmgenu »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:33 pmThe above appears to be a misunderstanding, again. [...] If one had concentration and was following the discussion, it was scenario #4 that was being discussed rather than scenario #1.
I can't imagine how you read the text of this thread and determined that anyone at all thought that scenario 1 was being discussed. Carry on anyways. I don't care to litigate this specific issue.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Rebirth Debate

Post by DooDoot »

Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:17 pm I can't imagine how you read the text of this thread and determined that anyone at all thought that scenario 1 was being discussed. Carry on anyways. I don't care to litigate this specific issue.
:focus:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by auto »

SteRo wrote: Mon Nov 30, 2020 1:14 pm
AlexBrains92 wrote: Mon Nov 30, 2020 12:56 pm
SteRo wrote: Mon Nov 30, 2020 12:32 pm


.
It's a nice explanatory concept however. "Stream of consciousness" is a common figure also in non-theravadin buddhisms. While the conceptual frame of "stream" or "continuum" appears to be permanent, the consciousnesses are subject to rise and fall and thus impermanent.
It may also be interpreted as "sub-consciousness" or "basic awareness" giving it a more static connotation which more fluently leads over to "soul".
Yes, there is Alayavijnana in early Yogacara, replaced by Cittasantana in later Yogacara. Therefore we find one of these concepts in every Mahayana school with Yogacara influences (probably every Mahayana school, theoretically but Gelug... theoretically!). There is no similiar concept in Madhyamaka.
The Gelugs who are madhyamikas also talk of "stream of consciousness" in sutra context ... and their concept of "clear light" used in their vajrayana is an esoteric version of it.
But yes since madhyamaka proper is just non-implicative negation there is no room for such kinds of speculations.
Between the eyes.., there is a black hole into what stream of countless light particles will go towards and fall in, which at first is seen light particles rising up towards the firmament and before that there just are flashes of light denoting the opening of that hole.
These particles collectively are breath(not ordinary). It is also pranjaparamita, perfect wisdom. In Taoism it is elixir of immortality. =clear light.
Confusion may come from the different manifestations on different stages of spiritual development.
Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Nov 30, 2020 1:03 pm
AlexBrains92 wrote: Mon Nov 30, 2020 12:56 pmYes, there is Alayavijnana in early Yogacara, replaced by Cittasantana in later Yogacara. Therefore we find one of these concepts in every Mahayana school with Yogacara influences (probably every Mahayana school, theoretically but Gelug... theoretically!). There is no similiar concept in Madhyamaka.
Oh, the Gelug definitely believe in the alayavijnana.
In saying that one grasps at the self of a person, one feels that as a person in and of oneself, existing in one’s own right, and because of this grasping one cherishes oneself too much. Due to this grasping or self-cherishing attitude, many other inappropriate states of mind or conceptions take place in one’s mind. Due to this one experiences delusions such as attachment or anger and under their influence one creates karmic actions. These karmic actions keep one within cyclic existence. As one creates karmic actions, they deposit imprints or latencies in one’s mindstream or mental continuum.
(http://teachingsfromtibet.com/2017/04/1 ... tradition/)

You'll notice they are using the definition here of alayavijnana as the field as well as the seeds, but call it the cittasamtati because the terms are interchangeable for them. What I am more interested in is a) how did you decide that cittasamtati was an evolution of alayavijnana and b) how did you decide that Madhyamaka has "no similar concept?"
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Re: Are you a Dictionary-believer or Commentary-believer?

Post by auto »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 4:35 am the above is not reconcilable for the dictionary or commentary sects; how the word "upapajjati" is translated as both "tenable" and "to be reborn"

it appears only an "etymological" approach can resolve the above "contextual" conundrum for the wikipedia dictionary sects :reading:
try this,
https://suttacentral.net/sn35.151/en/sujato wrote: When a mendicant sees a sight with the eye, bad, unskillful phenomena arise: memories and thoughts prone to fetters.
Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno cakkhunā rūpaṁ disvā uppajjanti pāpakā akusalā dhammā sarasaṅkappā saṁyojaniyā.
Those qualities reside within. Since they have bad unskillful qualities residing within,
Tyāssa anto vasanti, antassa vasanti pāpakā akusalā dhammāti.
they’re said to have a resident student.
Tasmā santevāsikoti vuccati.
Those qualities master them. Since they’re mastered by bad unskillful qualities,
Te naṁ samudācaranti, samudācaranti naṁ pāpakā akusalā dhammāti.
they’re said to have a teaching master.
Tasmā sācariyakoti vuccati …pe….
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by auto »

Visuddhimagga writes,
pdf p685 wrote:[NO DOER APART FROM KAMMA AND RESULT]
In all kinds of becoming, generation, destiny, station, and abode there appears
only mentality-materiality, which occurs by means of linking of cause with fruit.
He sees no doer over and above the doing, no experiencer of the result over and
above the occurrence of the result. But he sees clearly with right understanding
that the wise say “doer” when there is doing and “experiencer” when there is
experiencing simply as a mode of common usage.
here we can see how the no-selfers misinterpret the no doer or at least impute wrong grasp of what some of the selfers say, it means regards to separate doer.
I gather no-selfers mean absolutely no doer, but if to read the above quote it clearly says no doer apart from kamma and result.

also the abode and birth place according to Visuddhimagga is ayatana. The rebirth makes sense, since the birth or abode is ayatana.
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Re: Stream enterer have more than 7 times rebirth !

Post by DooDoot »

asahi wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 9:53 am DN18

“This is now the seventh time, Bhante, that I am reborn into the communion of the great King Vessavaṇa. Deceased as a human king, I am in heaven, a non-human king.
Seven there and seven here, in all fourteen rebirths—So much I know of lives I’ve lived in the past. Long, Bhante, have I, who am destined not to be reborn in states of woe (apayas), been conscious of that destiny, and now there is desire in me to become a Sakadagami.”
The Pali translated for "rebirths" above is "nivāsa".

SN 22.79 says when the noble disciple recollections past "nivāsa" ("abodes"), it is only not-self aggregates that are recollected.

It appears DN 18 contradicts SN 22.79. Since a Noble Disciple is free from self-identity view, it appears DN 18 is fake dhamma because DN 18 appears to say Bimbisāra is a Noble One even though Bimbisāra appears to engage identity-view:
And for a second time he called out:
Dutiyakampi saddamanussāvesi:

I am :roll: Bimbisāra, Blessed One!
‘bimbisāro ahaṁ, bhagavā;

I am :roll: Bimbisāra, Holy One!
bimbisāro ahaṁ, sugatāti.

This is the seventh time I have :roll: been reborn in the company of the Great King Vessavaṇa. After passing away from there, I am :roll: now able to become a king of non-humans..

DN 18
At Savatthi. “Bhikkhus, those ascetics and brahmins who recollect their manifold past abodes all recollect the five aggregates subject to clinging or a certain one among them. What five?

“When recollecting thus, bhikkhus: ‘I had such form in the past,’ it is just form that one recollects. When recollecting: ‘I had such a feeling in the past,’ it is just feeling that one recollects. When recollecting: ‘I had such a perception in the past,’ it is just perception that one recollects. When recollecting: ‘I had such volitional formations in the past,’ it is just volitional formations that one recollects. When recollecting: ‘I had such consciousness in the past,’ it is just consciousness that one recollects.

“Therefore, bhikkhus, any kind of form whatsoever … Any kind of feeling whatsoever … Any kind of perception whatsoever … Any kind of volitional formations whatsoever … Any kind of consciousness whatsoever, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near, all consciousness should be seen as it really is with correct wisdom thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not :meditate: , this is not my self.’

This is called, bhikkhus, a noble disciple :meditate: who dismantles and does not build up; who abandons and does not cling; who scatters and does not amass; who extinguishes and does not kindle.

SN 22.79
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Re: Stream enterer have more than 7 times rebirth !

Post by Dhammavamsa »

DooDoot wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 6:10 am
asahi wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 9:53 am DN18

“This is now the seventh time, Bhante, that I am reborn into the communion of the great King Vessavaṇa. Deceased as a human king, I am in heaven, a non-human king.
Seven there and seven here, in all fourteen rebirths—So much I know of lives I’ve lived in the past. Long, Bhante, have I, who am destined not to be reborn in states of woe (apayas), been conscious of that destiny, and now there is desire in me to become a Sakadagami.”
The Pali translated for "rebirths" above is "nivāsa".

SN 22.79 says when the noble disciple recollections past "nivāsa" ("abodes"), it is only not-self aggregates that are recollected.

It appears DN 18 contradicts SN 22.79. Since a Noble Disciple is free from self-identity view, it appears DN 18 is fake dhamma because DN 18 appears to say Bimbisāra is a Noble One even though Bimbisāra appears to engage identity-view:
And for a second time he called out:
Dutiyakampi saddamanussāvesi:

I am :roll: Bimbisāra, Blessed One!
‘bimbisāro ahaṁ, bhagavā;

I am :roll: Bimbisāra, Holy One!
bimbisāro ahaṁ, sugatāti.

This is the seventh time I have :roll: been reborn in the company of the Great King Vessavaṇa. After passing away from there, I am :roll: now able to become a king of non-humans..

DN 18
At Savatthi. “Bhikkhus, those ascetics and brahmins who recollect their manifold past abodes all recollect the five aggregates subject to clinging or a certain one among them. What five?

“When recollecting thus, bhikkhus: ‘I had such form in the past,’ it is just form that one recollects. When recollecting: ‘I had such a feeling in the past,’ it is just feeling that one recollects. When recollecting: ‘I had such a perception in the past,’ it is just perception that one recollects. When recollecting: ‘I had such volitional formations in the past,’ it is just volitional formations that one recollects. When recollecting: ‘I had such consciousness in the past,’ it is just consciousness that one recollects.

“Therefore, bhikkhus, any kind of form whatsoever … Any kind of feeling whatsoever … Any kind of perception whatsoever … Any kind of volitional formations whatsoever … Any kind of consciousness whatsoever, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near, all consciousness should be seen as it really is with correct wisdom thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not :meditate: , this is not my self.’

This is called, bhikkhus, a noble disciple :meditate: who dismantles and does not build up; who abandons and does not cling; who scatters and does not amass; who extinguishes and does not kindle.

SN 22.79
Isn't this a samutti Sacca? Or conventional truth?
"I am" here, Imho, is simply a language term, got nothing to do with Ditthi.
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Re: Stream enterer have more than 7 times rebirth !

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Dhammavamsa wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 5:37 am Isn't this a samutti Sacca? Or conventional truth?
"I am" here, Imho, is simply a language term, got nothing to do with Ditthi.
no. it appears Bimbisāra is maintaining the same identity over multiple nivasa.

imagine if the Buddha visited me & called out repeatedly: "I am DooDoot; I am DooDoot; I am now the CEO of Apple Inc"? :rolleye:
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Re: rebirth !

Post by cappuccino »

DooDoot wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 12:26 pm "I am now the CEO of Apple Inc"
Saṃsāra … beginningless cycle of repeated birth, mundane existence and dying again.


From Wikipedia
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by mjaviem »

Tennok wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 5:18 am ... I do agree, that the interpetation fo D.O occuring here and now, seems more usefull for the development of the Noble Path, than the 3 deaths/ rebirth theory. But I like moral implications of reincarnation...
Do you mean if there is no reincarnation there is no hell?

I think there is in fact a point in doing the right things for the purpose of liberation now.
Tennok wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 5:18 am ... And the perspective of having many lives, many chances to progress on the Path, is relaxing.
You shouldn't relax, on the contrary, that's our problem, to think there is time. What if you've already spent many many lives relaxing? Which is the life that is going to be the time to hasten? Whatever we believe we shouldn't lose the sense of urgency.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by DooDoot »

mjaviem wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 1:20 pm You shouldn't relax...
Jesus said: "my yoke is easy and my burden is light" (Matthew 11:30) - salvation via faith alone - belief in 'rebirth' divorced from kamma. Preaching 'rebirth' together with preaching sex with prostitutes. Protestant Buddhism. :smile:
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by mjaviem »

Tennok wrote:
DooDoot wrote:"it appears u never read the suttas, that say one of wrong view goes to hell. what is "moral" about slandering or fondling with the Buddha & the Dhamma? "
Look, the interpretation od the Dhamma, in which Gautama learned about his previous lifetimes during his Awakening night, is not my personal theory. Or Ajahn Brahm's secret teaching. It's actually easier to find monks and teachers - Buddhadasa, cough, cough - who don't agree with that, than the opposite. So I will be in a good company, when boiling in the devil's cauldron :tongue: . You act like I'm preaching about UFO here, or Flat Earth. Or cannibalism. :shrug:

I personally believe Dhamma is more complete, if moral implications of our actions, our kamma, lead to different rebirths. First, it explains, why some of us are born in more difficult conditions, like poverty, chronic illness, or abusive parents. It just makes more sense...puts some justice into the picture. I find such perspective inspiring. It gives me more space and time to improve...
Alternatively one could believe that being born under difficult circumstances means nothing but impersonal conditions set at birth. A cold disadvantage beyond fairness. When there's not a self anywhere to be found, justice lacks meaning (IMO). One could believe there's no kamma of a defunct being ripening at literal birth and that kamma only starts operating as soon as the self view of that newborn starts messing things up (and now on can see law of kamma as justice). It's nice to feel we have time to improve thanks to countless future lives but the experience of the future it could well mean only an evaluation of possibilities, just speculation without real substance. I think the time is now, there shouldn't be any relaxing about ending suffering. Isn't suffering a real and really awful thing right in the present even when not particularly experiencing it in the present? Wouldn't it be a great thing to finally end it now?
Tennok wrote: ... But I'm not a fanatic. My Zen teacher, for example, believed that rebirth happens here nad now, and it's just a metaphor of mind states changing rapidly. I wouldn't threat her with fires of hell for that . Actually, I agree with both interperetations.
...
Now I regard Zen in higher esteem. (But also welcome literal rebirth teachings to improve understanding)
Tennok wrote: ...
As about those funny threats of damnation, I think it may come from your cultural, protestant heritage. You are very knowledgeable, and i respect that, but I don't think such fanatism and Dosa are conductive on the Noble Path.

ASFAIK, Lord Buddha strongly cirtisized nihilistic beliefs, such as claiming that one's action lack any consequence and merit, and nothing really matters. Nihilism neglects His whole teaching, makes D.O, sila and kamma irrelevant. But does reincarnation belief really undermines the Damma?

Buddha did said in Apannaka Sutta:

"Because there actually is the next world, the view of one who thinks, 'There is no next world' is his wrong view".

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Of course, now interpretations start, what does "the next world" really means? You will probably say it just means "next adobe" and send me to Hell again. :zzz: But Buddha never explicitly said "those who believe in literal reincarnation go to hell". In fact, Lord Buddha did advice us many times to avoid strong statements and divasive, hostile speech . :smile:

Have a nice day, hug a kitty, do some metta and be more kind to others, it will help
I regard @DooDoot's comments as very valuable to this community (you can agree with him or not). He shows nothing more and nothing less than new ways of understanding the Suttas and the Dhamma. Independently of who's right and who's wrong, any inquiry in search of the Truth and sharing should be well regarded.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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