the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Dhammavamsa
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Dhammavamsa »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:21 am
Dhammavamsa wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:56 am Sharing
Sounds speculative but i suppose reassuring for eternalists. :heart:
And how, bhikkhus, do some hold back? Devas and humans enjoy being, delight in being, are satisfied with being. When Dhamma is taught to them for the cessation of being, their minds do not enter into it or acquire confidence in it or settle upon it or become resolved upon it. Thus, bhikkhus, do some hold back.

https://suttacentral.net/iti49/en/ireland
Nonsense, nobody talking about Eternalism here.
Completely irrelevant.
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DooDoot
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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Dhammavamsa wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:59 pm Nonsense, nobody talking about Eternalism here.
Completely irrelevant.
It is very relevant because Eternalism is the view a self continues after death. The Buddha explained Eternalism as follows:
And how, bhikkhus, do some hold back? Devas and humans enjoy being, delight in being, are satisfied with being. When Dhamma is taught to them for the cessation of being, their minds do not enter into it or acquire confidence in it or settle upon it or become resolved upon it. Thus, bhikkhus, do some hold back.

https://suttacentral.net/iti49/en/ireland
Kassapa, if one thinks, ‘The one who acts is the same as the one who experiences the result,’ then one asserts with reference to one existing from the beginning: ‘Suffering is created by oneself.’ When one asserts thus, this amounts to eternalism.

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.17/en/bodhi
So please tell me, Dhammavamsa.

1. Will "you" be reborn in a future life if you do not reach Arahantship in this life?

2. If it is not "you" reborn, for "who" or "what" :shrug: are you doing good kamma in this life to be inherented in future lives?

3. Also, if it is not "you" reborn in future lives, please show me a sutta that says not-self elements (anatta-dhatu) are reborn in future lives?

Thanks :thanks:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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auto
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by auto »

I wish doodoot would ask me questions too.
based on sn21.1
If you know(occurs to you) that the 2nd jhana has ekodibhāva(no vittakavicara) then you can train for a rebirth in 2nd jhana.
Rebirth requires knowledge into what you reborn.
There is no who who is reborning, it is development of mind what leads one to reborn.

3rd person description of 1st jhana,
suttacentral wrote:Take a mendicant who, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected.
Idhāvuso visākha, bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṁ savicāraṁ vivekajaṁ pītisukhaṁ paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati.
The 'remains' part is where one hasn't neglected pitisukha. Vitakkavicara is the training to enter jhana, which is about using vitakkavicara to keep at the knowledge of 'i am aware of what i am doing' and in order to stay one got to use the pitisukha and then when one realizes that the next abode is without vitakkavicara, proceeds of removing it, whereas what is intended with the 'i am aware of what i am doing' stays intact.
In short, anatta is the 1:1 touch with reality next step from 'being aware and knowing of it'. As you see it is not atta being some ego thing what causally reborns when going from one room to another or posting in forum.
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DooDoot
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by DooDoot »

auto wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 10:57 pm I wish doodoot would ask me questions too.
I don't ask Saccaka questions to those I have loving-kindness towards :heart:
Then Dummukha [BadMouth] the Licchavi-son — sensing that Saccaka :strawman: the Nigaṇṭha-son was silent, abashed, sitting with his shoulders drooping, his head down, brooding, at a loss for words — said to the Blessed One, "Lord, a simile has occurred to me."

"Let it occur to you, Dummukha," the Blessed One said.

"Suppose, lord, that not far from a village or town was a pond. There in it was a crab. Then a number of boys & girls, leaving the village or town, would go to the pond and, on arrival, would go down to bathe in it. Taking the crab out of the water, they would place it on the ground. And whenever the crab extended a leg, the boys or girls would cut it off, break it, and smash it with sticks or stones right there, so that the crab — with all its legs cut off, broken, & smashed — would be unable to get back in the water as before. In the same way, whatever Saccaka the Nigaṇṭha-son's writhings, capers, & contortions, the Blessed One has cut them off, broken them, and smashed them all, so that Saccaka the Nigaṇṭha-son is now unable to approach the Blessed One again for the purpose of debate."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

:jedi:
In summary, based on SN 12.17, it appears the idea "I will be reborn from my karma" is an example of Eternalism. :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by auto »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:35 am In summary, based on SN 12.17, it appears the idea "I will be reborn from my karma" is an example of Eternalism. :smile:
Attabhava ripens there where the attabhava originated not in any other realm. In sense realm and the any other realm is the form and formless realms.
https://suttacentral.net/an3.34/en/sujato wrote: When an ignorant person acts
Lobhajaṁ dosajañceva,
Variant: dosajañceva → dosajaṁ kammaṁ (mr)
out of greed, hate, or delusion,
mohajañcāpaviddasu;
any deeds they have performed
Yaṁ tena pakataṁ kammaṁ,
—whether a little or a lot—
appaṁ vā yadi vā bahuṁ;
are to be experienced right here,
Idheva taṁ vedaniyaṁ,
not in any other place.
vatthu aññaṁ na vijjati.
It is possible to arouse knowledge of the outcome of greed..it is possible to arouse vijja of attabhava.
https://suttacentral.net/an3.34/en/sujato wrote:So a wise person,
Tasmā lobhañca dosañca,
a mendicant arousing knowledge
mohajañcāpi viddasu;
of the outcome of greed, hate, and delusion,
Vijjaṁ uppādayaṁ bhikkhu,
would cast off all bad destinies.”
sabbā duggatiyo jahe”ti.
the purpose of wisdom is,
https://suttacentral.net/mn43/en/sujato wrote: “The purpose of wisdom is direct knowledge, complete understanding, and giving up.”
“Paññā kho, āvuso, abhiññatthā pariññatthā pahānatthā”ti.
vijja of attabhava is non-being: alobha, adosa, amoha. Non-being of the outcome of absence of sensual stimulation. Quite secluded from sensual pleasures..
Eternalism is about the untouchable, incorruptible soul, as when you die you go to heaven. And annihilationism means there is another self.
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.17/en/sujato wrote:“Suppose that the person who does the deed experiences the result. Then for one who has existed since the beginning, suffering is made by oneself. This statement leans toward eternalism.
“‘So karoti so paṭisaṁvedayatī’ti kho, kassapa, ādito sato ‘sayaṅkataṁ dukkhan’ti iti vadaṁ sassataṁ etaṁ pareti. Variant: paṭisaṁvedayatī’ti → paṭisaṁvediyatīti (bj, pts1ed, pts2ed, mr)
Suppose that one person does the deed and another experiences the result. Then for one stricken by feeling, suffering is made by another. This statement leans toward annihilationism.
‘Añño karoti añño paṭisaṁvedayatī’ti kho, kassapa, vedanābhitunnassa sato ‘paraṅkataṁ dukkhan’ti iti vadaṁ ucchedaṁ etaṁ pareti.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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auto wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:05 pm Eternalism is about the untouchable, incorruptible soul, as when you die you go to heaven. And annihilationism means there is another self.
eternalism is merely about identity…


annihilation is merely about what it says


whereas the soul is not denied in this teaching
Last edited by cappuccino on Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by cappuccino »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 8:08 am please show me a sutta that says not-self elements (anatta-dhatu) are reborn in future lives?
"When the mind was thus concentrated … I directed it to the knowledge of recollecting my past lives. I recollected my manifold past lives, i.e., one birth, two...five, ten...fifty, a hundred, a thousand, a hundred thousand …

There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there."


Maha-Saccaka Sutta
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by DooDoot »

Dhammavamsa wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 12:52 pm The book "Investigating the Dhamma: A Collection of Papers" by Bhikkhu Bodhi did addresses these question.

Reading it will help better understanding. Available online for free.
Browsing the above book, I found what i regard as the following errors by Bhikkhu Bodhi:
Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote:Before we go any further, we should point out that Ven.
Ñánavìra does not cite any suttas to support his understanding
of bhava, játi, and jarámaraóa, and in fact there are no suttas to be
found in the Páli Canon that explain the above terms in this way.
SN 23.2 & SN 5.10 defined "a being" as a "view" or "strong attachment". MN 86 says by becoming a monk, Angulimala was "born (jata) into the noble birth (jatiya)". SN 12.2 defines "birth" & "death" as occurring to "beings". Since "beings" are defined as self-views, it appears Nanavira's idea was correct :) ; even though Nanavira did not cite any suttas.

Also, since the suttas never say a Buddha or Arahant is subject to "death" ("marana"), it appears Nanavira was correct.
Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote:Moreover, on Ven. Ñáóavìra’s interpretation it may not even be
quite correct to say ‘játipaccayá jarámaraóaí’. On his view, it
seems, one would be obliged to say instead, ‘bhavapaccayá játi,
bhavapaccayá jarámaraóaí’.
The above sounds wrong & illogical. The above is like saying contact in D.O. contains no ignorance. This is obviously false because many suttas refer to contact with ignorance (SN 22.81; MN 38; MN 148; etc).
Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote:Since he regards the puthujjana’s
taking himself to be a self as the basis for his notions “my self
was born” and “my self will die,” it would follow that ‘being
would be the condition for both ‘birth’ and ‘aging-and-death’.
But that is not what the Buddha himself asserts.
No. The Buddha exactly asserts the above.
Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote:In many suttas dealing with PS the Buddha defines the above
terms of the formula, and if we look at these texts we will see that
they are starkly different from Ven. Ñáóavìra’s explanation of
them. The definitions are standardized and can be found at DN
22/D II 305; MN 9/M I 49–50; SN 12:2/S II 2–3, etc.:
“And what, monks, is aging and death? The aging of beings in
the various orders of beings, their old age, brokenness of
teeth, greyness of hair, wrinkling of skin, decline of life,
weakness of faculties—this is called aging. The passing of
beings out of the various orders of beings, their passing away,
dissolution, disappearance, dying, completion of time,
dissolution of the aggregates, laying down of the body—this
is called death. So this aging and this death are (together)
called aging-and-death.
“And what, monks, is birth? The birth of beings into the
various orders of beings, their coming to birth, descent (into
a womb), production, manifestation of the aggregates,
obtaining the bases for contact—this is called birth.”
The above definitions, with their strings of synonyms and
concrete imagery, clearly indicate that ‘birth’ refers to biological
birth and ‘aging-and-death’ to biological aging and biological
death—not to the puthujjana’s notions “I was born; I will age and
No. If the suttas referred to biological birth & death, as the Abhidhamma literally does, the same as the Abhidhamma, the Suttas would not include the word "beings" or the phrase "beings in a class of beings" in its definition.

Also, since the suttas never say a Buddha or Arahant is subject to "death" ("marana"), it appears Nanavira was correct.

The opinion of Bhikkhu Bodhi is so wonderful to read because it is perfect for generating dispassion towards the world of worldlings. :meditate:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by auto »

cappuccino wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 5:55 pm eternalism is merely about identity…
annihilation is merely about what it says
whereas the soul is not denied in this teaching
jīva,
https://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/j/j%C4%ABva/ wrote:Buddhist Dictionary by NYANATILOKA MAHATHERA
jīva:life,vital principle,individual soul.'Soul (life) and body are identical' and 'Soul and body are different',these two frequently quoted wrong views fall under the 2 kinds of personality-belief (sakkāya-diṭṭhi; s.diṭṭhi),i.e.the first one under the annihilation-belief (uccheda-diṭṭhi) and the second under the eternity-belief (sassata-diṭṭhi).
life manifests through a genital organ,
taoist alchemy.. wrote: The Tan Ching says: Nature is(in) the heart and manifests through the eyes; life is(in) the lower abdomen and manifests through the genital organ.
.
https://suttacentral.net/sn10.1/en/sujato wrote: “The Buddhas say that form is not the soul.
“Rūpaṁ na jīvanti vadanti buddhā,
Then how does this body manifest?
Kathaṁ nvayaṁ vindatimaṁ sarīraṁ;
Where do the bones and liver come from?
Kutassa aṭṭhīyakapiṇḍameti,
And how does one cling on in the womb?”
Kathaṁ nvayaṁ sajjati gabbharasmin”ti.

“First there’s a drop of coagulate;
“Paṭhamaṁ kalalaṁ hoti,
from there a little bud appears;
kalalā hoti abbudaṁ;
next it becomes a piece of flesh;
Abbudā jāyate pesi,
which produces a swelling.
pesi nibbattatī ghano;
From that swelling the limbs appear,
Ghanā pasākhā jāyanti,
the head hair, body hair, and teeth.
kesā lomā nakhāpi ca.

And whatever the mother eats—
Yañcassa bhuñjatī mātā,
the food and drink that she consumes—
annaṁ pānañca bhojanaṁ;
nourishes them there,
Tena so tattha yāpeti,
the person in the mother’s womb.”
mātukucchigato naro”ti.
.
taoist alchemy.. wrote: (Essential) nature is spiritual vitality in the heart that manifests through the two channels from the center of the brain.
So when seeing is concentrated on the spot between the eyes, the light of(essential) nature manifests and will, after long training, unite with(eternal) life to become one whole. This unison is called seeing the void that is not empty and he who is not awakened to this union will achieve nothing in his practice.
So you pretty much need show how material reality isn't a manifestation of a soul(prenatal) and also why there is no need for practice a'la sublimating lifeforce into vitality.. believing is not enough.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by cappuccino »

auto wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:07 pm believing is not enough.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by PerpetualStudent2021 »

Buddha taught about a literal rebirth. In Christianity, Christ taught rebirth. Then there is reincarnation. How do the 3 concepts inherently differ and manifest themselves in our lives as we strive for a better life in the hereafter?
I think that we all at some point are in search of something - a higher power, whatever you want to call it, the meaning of life. I know I was, especially at even my son's age in my 20s, and dabbling in Eastern philosophies and yoga and Buddhism and Christianity and Islam. I kind of touched them all, you know, just trying to figure out the meaning of life or if nothing else, figure myself out.
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Re: Did Buddha opposed caste system

Post by DooDoot »

SamD wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 2:13 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 1:27 am Any Buddhist who denies rebirth is not a follower of the Master, nor is anyone who falls for the degenerate delusions of National Socialism, Fascism or Racism in general.

This is my perception as well. :thumbsup: . What do you think of DN3?

Was it delivered to rebuke and make some pridefull brahmin malleable?
It appears the Buddha didn't even teach "rebirth". There appears no word in Pali that means "rebirth". However, for what others infer as "rebirth", the suttas (MN 117) say is a defiled view; not a factor of the Noble Path. Buddha said his True Dhamma was visible here & now.

:jedi: :focus:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Did Buddha opposed caste system

Post by Ceisiwr »

DooDoot wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 4:27 am
SamD wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 2:13 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 1:27 am Any Buddhist who denies rebirth is not a follower of the Master, nor is anyone who falls for the degenerate delusions of National Socialism, Fascism or Racism in general.

This is my perception as well. :thumbsup: . What do you think of DN3?

Was it delivered to rebuke and make some pridefull brahmin malleable?
It appears the Buddha didn't even teach "rebirth". There appears no word in Pali that means "rebirth". However, for what others infer as "rebirth", the suttas (MN 117) say is a defiled view; not a factor of the Noble Path. Buddha said his True Dhamma was visible here & now.

:jedi: :focus:
It appears that all of the Great Masters of old that lead all of the ancient traditions taught rebirth, taught that dependent origination spans lifetimes. I find this to be a more convincing explanation of what is explicit in the suttas than what can be found in your own modernist and incompetent ramblings.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Sat Aug 14, 2021 4:50 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Did Buddha opposed caste system

Post by DiamondNgXZ »

DooDoot wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 4:27 am
SamD wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 2:13 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 1:27 am Any Buddhist who denies rebirth is not a follower of the Master, nor is anyone who falls for the degenerate delusions of National Socialism, Fascism or Racism in general.

This is my perception as well. :thumbsup: . What do you think of DN3?

Was it delivered to rebuke and make some pridefull brahmin malleable?
It appears the Buddha didn't even teach "rebirth". There appears no word in Pali that means "rebirth". However, for what others infer as "rebirth", the suttas (MN 117) say is a defiled view; not a factor of the Noble Path. Buddha said his True Dhamma was visible here & now.

:jedi: :focus:
You're denying rebirth?

Just youtube reincarnation evidences. Read books by Ian Stevenson, Jim Tucker, Carol Bowman, Francis Story, many others. On kids who remembers their past lives and then found real world past life families as the kids described.

To deny that Buddha taught rebirth, you're promoting wrong view and you're misrepresenting the Buddha, that's a lot of bad kamma, especially considering how active you're in this forum.
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Re: Did Buddha opposed caste system

Post by DooDoot »

DiamondNgXZ wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 4:46 am Just youtube reincarnation evidences. Read books by Ian Stevenson, Jim Tucker, Carol Bowman, Francis Story, many others. On kids who remembers their past lives and then found real world past life families as the kids described.
The Buddha taught refuge in the Triple Gem, which includes the Dhamma visible here & now.

Since you claim to be a monk, please quote the Dhamma Refuge the monks chant each morning & evening. Thank you :thanks:
DiamondNgXZ wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 4:46 amTo deny that Buddha taught rebirth, you're promoting wrong view and you're misrepresenting the Buddha, that's a lot of bad kamma, especially considering how active you're in this forum.
You appear to have broken the rules of the forum above; which prohibits threatening others with kammic retribution.

If what i wrote is wrong; why does this forum allow a debate on the matter?

The Buddha appeared to never teach "rebirth" which means "reincarnation". I am not misrepresenting the Buddha.

It appears only those IGNORANT of sutta who misrepresent the Buddha. :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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