the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Kjigme
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Kjigme »

Fifty years of research at UVI



:namaste:
We beings here assembled, whether terrestrial or celestial, salute the Accomplished Buddha, honoured by gods and men. May there be happiness!
We beings here assembled, whether terrestrial or celestial, salute the Accomplished Dhamma, honoured by gods and men. May there be happiness!
We beings here assembled, whether terrestrial or celestial, salute the Accomplished Sangha, honoured by gods and men. May there be happiness!

Ratana Sutta
Juriks
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Juriks »

Here are buddhist teachers which are not rebirth belivers or they just dont see this belive as important to practice:

Buddhadasa, Ajahn Sumedho, Dhammarato, Gil Fronsdal...


Who else?

Please let me know its important.
hermitwin
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by hermitwin »

An interesting interview with Dr Jim Tucker on reincarnation.

Mudryj
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Mudryj »

DooDoot wrote: Sat Aug 28, 2021 5:28 am The word "not established" ("appatiṭṭhitañca") refers to Nibbana; per SN 22.53.

Since it is only possible for there to be a consciousness abiding in Nibbana in the here-&-now, the above use of "viññāṇasotaṁ" (including with "this world & the other world") can only refer to a stream of consciousness in the here & now.

In summary, DN 28 appears to mean:

1. For the non-Arahant, the stream of consciousness fluctuates between "worlds". Please note, the word "world" is used for here & now mental states, such as in SN 12.44, or more clearly, in MN 79, which describes jhana as "a world of exclusive pleasant feelings".

2. For the Arahant, the stream of consciousness is uninterrupted in Nibbana (i.e., not this world & another world).

3. As for the word "sota" or "stream", it appears to have an ordinary meaning, such as in "sotapanna".
How could you make the cessation of consciousness with the cessation of the conditioning factors/form-name become "an uninterrupted stream of consciousness in nibbana"? Teach me this trick. An unestablished consciousness is a consciousness that is not planted in the ground, like a seed, and has not sprouted. it is a consciousness that is like a bundle of reeds that does not rest on another bundle and falls. This is the consciousness that is like a fire that has no fuel, is not established on the fuel and goes out. It is like a light that does not fall on the wall, or on the ground, or on space, falls through and disappears without reflecting. It is like a body that, not relying on food, water and air, decays and decomposes, turning into a corpse. A vinnana without support is a vinnana devoid of thirst and not looking for support in the new nama rupa. And so, consciousness without support, unasserted consciousness - this is the cessation of consciousness with the cessation of the necessary condition.

As for this world and the next world. the annihilationists did not believe in the next world, this is their view! In the formula for describing the annihilationist and nihilistic view there is a mention of the absence of this world and the next, that is, a total cessation with the death of the body. When the body dies, there is no next world and no this world. In nirvana, the same result is achieved, therefore it is said that with the extinction of the consciousness and the disintegration of the body of an arahant, there is neither this world nor the next world, just like in the annihilationist view. The only difference is that with thirst as a condition there is rebirth. And in contrast to the views of annihilationists and eternalists, a person does not have a stable Self or a core of personality that would be eternal or destroyed along with death.
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Rambutan
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Rambutan »

Rebirth occurs every second, otherwise there would be a continuous “you” (atman) which of course, Buddhism rejects. The components of the body (cells) are always arising and falling away. Why should the fact that they cease arising at death matter? Actually although rebirth occurs, it is a clumsy word. It’s not accurate if it implies the same entity arising as was before. It’s better to think of it as a clone. But if the same causes and conditions are there, the same effects will result. It is okay to use the term “rebirth” to suggest a continuous stream of separately arising and ceasing moments, in the sense that it is an individual stream which can be differentiated from another stream (two different people), even though there is nothing within the individual which is not constantly arising and falling away, each moment causing the next to occur.
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cappuccino
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by cappuccino »

Rambutan wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:20 pm It’s better to think of it as a clone.
That’s too extreme
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Rambutan
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Rambutan »

cappuccino wrote: Mon Jan 31, 2022 9:40 pm
Rambutan wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:20 pm It’s better to think of it as a clone.
That’s too extreme
Perhaps for some
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cappuccino
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by cappuccino »

Rambutan wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 12:20 am
cappuccino wrote: Mon Jan 31, 2022 9:40 pm
Rambutan wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:20 pm It’s better to think of it as a clone.
That’s too extreme
Perhaps for some
But this is the middle way
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Rambutan
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Rambutan »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 12:23 am
Rambutan wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 12:20 am
cappuccino wrote: Mon Jan 31, 2022 9:40 pm

That’s too extreme
Perhaps for some
But this is the middle way
“Middle way” has nothing to do with the example of a clone, which is quite apt as an analogy for the instantaneous replication of moments of consciousness (each being the cause for the nearly identical arising of the next).
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cappuccino
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by cappuccino »

Rambutan wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 12:32 am “Middle way” has nothing to do with the example
middle of two extremes, such as self, no self
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Rambutan
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Rambutan »

cappuccino wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 1:33 am
Rambutan wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 12:32 am “Middle way” has nothing to do with the example
middle of two extremes, such as self, no self
How does that even relate at all to my post?
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cappuccino
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by cappuccino »

Rambutan wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 3:52 am How does that relate at all to my post?
the next life must be us, at least in part


rather than a mere clone
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Rambutan
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Rambutan »

cappuccino wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 3:53 am
Rambutan wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 3:52 am How does that relate at all to my post?
the next life must be us, at least in part


rather than a mere clone
It’s the same mind stream. Mind stream, like a river stream. Just as there is nothing permanent in a river stream, there is nothing that can be found that can be called a permanent self. Each moment of consciousness provides the basis for the next to arise. Each moment of consciousness is the cause for the next one, and each moment of consciousness is the result of the previous one. If this were not the case, there would be no functioning of karmic cause and result.
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cappuccino
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by cappuccino »

Rambutan wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 4:02 am It’s the same mind stream.
Similar I think to yesterday and today
asahi
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by asahi »

Rambutan wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 4:02 am
cappuccino wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 3:53 am
Rambutan wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 3:52 am How does that relate at all to my post?
the next life must be us, at least in part


rather than a mere clone
It’s the same mind stream. Mind stream, like a river stream. Just as there is nothing permanent in a river stream, there is nothing that can be found that can be called a permanent self. Each moment of consciousness provides the basis for the next to arise. Each moment of consciousness is the cause for the next one, and each moment of consciousness is the result of the previous one. If this were not the case, there would be no functioning of karmic cause and result.
The processes is not a linear one . Cause n effect does not function in a linear way .
No bashing No gossiping
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