the great rebirth debate

[Aloka]

that is very bad weighty kamma that can be responcible for rebirth in Hell and other bad places.

Do you have any actual evidence of "Hell and other bad places" ? Are they here on earth...or somewhere on another planet?

Where are they exactly, Alex ? Can we visit and take a peek ?

.

[Alex123]

that is very bad weighty kamma that can be responcible for rebirth in Hell and other bad places.

Do you have any actual evidence of "Hell and other bad places" ? Are they here on earth...or somewhere on another planet?
Where are they exactly, Alex ? Can we visit and take a peek ?
.

I believe the Buddha and Pali Canon.

[Shonin]

The list does include birth.

I didn't say it didn't include birth. I said it included other things too, which are experienced here and now in this life.

If there is one life only, then what is the point in practicing for cessation of birth if it is never going to re occur again?

To eliminate suffering in this life of course. The 1st NT is suffering. The cause is attachment. Ending attachment in this life ends suffering in this life.

Because there is birth, there will follow aging, illnesses, various problems and death. Birth is the main physical event responcible for possibility of dukkha. IT IS ALSO MENTIONED FIRST. I think that there is good reason for that.

Well my birth has already happened and a certain amount of suffering/unsatisfactoriness has occurred afterwards. My Buddhist practice is effective at eliminating or at least reducing that suffering, in this life. I don't have to depend on a later life to reap the benefits of practice. Whether birth is the most important or not is not stated, but even if it is, practice is still effective whether one believes in rebirth or not.

Right, and if one rejects the rebirth - then one has wrong view (MN117). If one has fixed wrong view (niyata micchādiṭṭhi), that is very bad weighty kamma that can be responcible for rebirth in Hell and other bad places.

Faith-based fire-and-brimstone talk. Do you think you can frighten us into believing something?

"(i) nihilism (natthika-diṭṭhi), which denies the survival of the personality in any form after death, thus negating the moral significance of deeds;

The correct translation is Annihilationism. An Annihilationist believes the personality (self) is annihilated on death. I do not believe that.

[Aloka]

that is very bad weighty kamma that can be responcible for rebirth in Hell and other bad places.

Do you have any actual evidence of "Hell and other bad places" ? Are they here on earth...or somewhere on another planet?
Where are they exactly, Alex ? Can we visit and take a peek ?
.

I believe the Buddha and Pali Canon.

So you obviously don't believe that there were mundane (morality) and supramundane teachings from the Buddha then ?....I think it might have been Sunrise who also mentioned this earlier somewhere.

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[Sunrise]

Alex, I was waiting for a reply like this where someone points out to me that physical existence is suffering and how "aging and death" (suffering) is defined in the suttas as "birth is suffering" ... etc. The suttas say what they say. When you walk on the road and hit your foot somewhere you feel pain. Is this pain necessarily "suffering"? Or is it just pain? It makes sense to mindfully observe what suffering is rather than hanging on to suttas. Even if you take suttas word for word, the very same suttas which say birth is suffering later say this:

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 he gives up all latent tendencies to greed, drives out all latent tendencies to aversion and, completely destroying the latent tendency to measure as `I be', dispels ignorance, arouses science, and here and now makes an end of unpleasantness.  

MN 9

Completely destroying the latent tendency to measure as "I be"... Here and now makes an end of unpleasantness. The Buddha lived in peace born from relinquishment. He felt physical pain but he did not mentally suffer.

Nonetheless, you can continue to argue that existence is suffering and you try to put an end to being born into a womb or into some "realm". That would be fine. But that still doesn't make rebirth beliefs central to the four noble truths. we can practice the 4 noble truths for the present moment. You don't have to believe in anything to do that.

[Sunrise]

People want to avoid getting reborn and yet they do...

I am not sure how people plan to stop themselves from being born into the mother's womb but now that I am born and am already here, I certainly am interested in stopping mental births as "I am" or "mine" which is the cause of suffering.

"... That is how you should train yourself.

When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bahiya, there is no you in terms of that. When there is no you in terms of that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two.

This, just this, is the end of stress."

Bahiya Sutta

[Lazy_eye]

Nonetheless, you can continue to argue that existence is suffering and you try to put an end to being born into a womb or into some "realm". That would be fine. But that still doesn't make rebirth beliefs central to the four noble truths. we can practice the 4 noble truths for the present moment. You don't have to believe in anything to do that.

Sunrise,

There are two different questions. Related questions, yes, but not identical.

One: "is rebirth central to the dhamma as taught by the Buddha in the Pali Canon?"
Two: "Can we practice for the present moment? Can dhamma be beneficial and meaningful even if I don't understand/accept rebirth?"

If you're interested (and perhaps you won't be), I can suggest a thought experiment which has been helpful to me. It goes as follows:

Put aside your skepticism about rebirth and decide -- just as an experiment -- to accept the assumptions that the Buddha taught rebirth, that it is central to the dhamma, and that it may be true. Decide you will hold these assumptions for a certain time period, maybe a few days, maybe a few weeks. Then spend some quality time with the teachings in the Pali Canon. Read them in light of the view that literal rebirth happens, that there is a next world, and that beings re-arise life after life in accordance with their kamma. Again, this is just an exercise, you're not committing to any "belief".

If your experience is like mine, you'll find that certain aspects of the dhamma which didn't quite make sense before become clearer.

Maybe this is of no use to you, in which case just ignore. My experience has been that arguing this stuff out in a discussion forum is not all that productive; it produces rancor and often amounts to reinventing the (dhamma) wheel. Better to test the teachings out for yourself.

If you haven't read it already, I'd also recommend Bhikkhu Bodhi's fine anthology of the Pali scriptures, "In the Buddha's Words". Plus his series of lectures on the Majjhima Nikaya, available as an audio download...

http://www.bodhimonastery.net/courses/MN/MN_course.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

All best,

LE
.

[Aloka]

I am not sure how people plan to stop themselves from being born into the mother's womb but now that I am born and am already here, I certainly am interested in stopping mental births as "I am" or "mine" which is the cause of suffering.

"... That is how you should train yourself.

When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bahiya, there is no you in terms of that. When there is no you in terms of that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two.

This, just this, is the end of stress."

Bahiya Sutta

Thank you for your comments and the sutta quote , Sunrise. This lifetime is certainly the most important one for reducing suffering..... If I'm not going to reborn, its important - and if I'm going to be reborn as a worm, its important !

[Sunrise]

Put aside your skepticism about rebirth and decide -- just as an experiment -- to accept the assumptions that the Buddha taught rebirth, that it is central to the dhamma, and that it may be true. Decide you will hold these assumptions for a certain time period, maybe a few days, maybe a few weeks. Then spend some quality time with the teachings in the Pali Canon. Read them in light of the view that literal rebirth happens, that there is a next world, and that beings re-arise life after life in accordance with their kamma. Again, this is just an exercise, you're not committing to any "belief".

If your experience is like mine, you'll find that certain aspects of the dhamma which didn't quite make sense before become clearer.

Lazy, I already walked this path about 2 years back. Due to the "quality time" I spent with the pali canon I think the most rational way to practice Dhamma is focusing on the here and now. It makes sense not to just "believe" or just "disbelieve"

Better to test the teachings out for yourself.

How do you test rebirth?
I am not the one here focusing on the unverifiable you know.

If you haven't read it already, I'd also recommend Bhikkhu Bodhi...

I have. If you haven't read it already, I'd also recommend Bhikku Buddhadasa

[bodom]

Deja vu? Strangely it feels as though all this has been said before, over and over. Almost like samsara?

[Sunrise]

Laziness and boredom

[Aloka]

Deja vu? Strangely it feels as though all this has been said before, over and over. Almost like samsara?

Indeed. I've probably said the following before too, Bodom :

Ajahn Sumedho very much emphasises the importance of the here and now. In his book 'The Sound of Silence' he says:

"I quite like the idea of reincarnation, and of rebirth, on a theoretical level. I've no bias against it, but it is speculative and it's conceptual."

(The Sound of Silence)

_/\_

[bodom]

One of my very favorite Dhamma books.

[Sunrise]

Did you read it?

[bodom]

Did you read it?

Many times.