the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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tiltbillings
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Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Post by tiltbillings »

Sunrise wrote:The suttas clearly state that rebirth belief is a mundane teaching for morality and is not a part of the super-mundane right view that leads to cessation.
Not that anyone here has shown.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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cooran
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Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Post by cooran »

Hello all,

These articles by Ven. Bodhi may be of assistance:

Dhamma without Rebirth - Bhikkhu Bodhi
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ay_06.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Does Rebirth Make Sense? - Bhikkhu Bodhi
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ay_46.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
alan
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Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Post by alan »

Upon his awakening, the Buddha saw into his past lives.
What else do you need to know?
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retrofuturist
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Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Alan,

Even if that is accepted as true (and I see no reason not to)... it doesn't directly relate to whether Buddhism could exist without the doctrine of reincarnation, does it?

If so, feel free to connect the dots for us.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
Sunrise
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Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Post by Sunrise »

tiltbillings wrote:Not that anyone here has shown.
Has the Buddha said somewhere that it is impossible or useless to practice dhamma without believing in life after death? :smile:
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tiltbillings
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Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Post by tiltbillings »

Sunrise wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Not that anyone here has shown.
Has the Buddha said somewhere that it is impossible or useless to practice dhamma without believing in life after death?
That is a very different question stating:
The suttas clearly state that rebirth belief is a mundane teaching for morality and is not a part of the super-mundane right view that leads to cessation.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Sunrise
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Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Post by Sunrise »

tiltbillings wrote:
Sunrise wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Not that anyone here has shown.
Has the Buddha said somewhere that it is impossible or useless to practice dhamma without believing in life after death?
That is a very different question stating:
The suttas clearly state that rebirth belief is a mundane teaching for morality and is not a part of the super-mundane right view that leads to cessation.
MN 117
What is right view with desires to share merit, which mature as substratum? There are results for gifts, sacrifices and offerings. There are results for good and bad actions. There is this world, another world, mother, father, spontaneously arisen beings, There are recluses and brahmins who realizing this world and the other world declare it. This is right view with desires, to share merit, which mature as substratum.

Bhikkhus, what is right view, that is noble, without desires, transcending this world is a feature of the path? The noble mind's development of the enlightenment factor investigation of the Teaching without desires, together with the path factors of wisdom, the faculty of wisdom, the power of wisdom, is right view that is noble, transcending this world and is a feature of the path.
There is the right view with desires to share merit and there is the noble right view without desires
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tiltbillings
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Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Post by tiltbillings »

Sunrise wrote:
Bhikkhus, what is right view, that is noble, without desires, transcending this world is a feature of the path? The noble mind's development of the enlightenment factor investigation of the Teaching without desires, together with the path factors of wisdom, the faculty of wisdom, the power of wisdom, is right view that is noble, transcending this world and is a feature of the path.
There is the right view with desires to share merit and there is the noble right view without desires
There is nothing there that supports the distinction you are making between a supposed mundane view encompassing rebirth and a "transcendent" view that does not.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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retrofuturist
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Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Well, we could even quote from Tilt's signature...

"This being is bound to samsara, karma is his means for going beyond." (SN I, 38.)

Metta,
Retro. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
Sunrise
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Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Post by Sunrise »

retrofuturist wrote:
"This being is bound to samsara, karma is his means for going beyond." (SN I, 38.)
Thus do good deeds to gather good kamma so that you get a favorable future rebirth with space to practice more dhamma. A belief that motivates morality
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Hanzze
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Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Post by Hanzze »

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Sun Oct 31, 2010 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Aloka
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Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Post by Aloka »

.

I hope this thread isn't going to descend into bullying at some point - and that we can respect each other's different views.

Having read the thread so far, nothing has persuaded me to change from my neutral position of not speculating about past and future and of practising Dhamma in the here and now, according to the most excellent and (to me) very relevant teachings of Ajahn Sumedho.

Can Buddhism exist for me without the doctine of reincarnation ? The answer is yes. Does that mean that some people won't consider me to be a "Buddhist"? Probably, but that's up to them, its just their views and opinions - and what's important to me is my own practice.

with metta to all,

Aloka :)
lojong1
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Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Post by lojong1 »

Aloka wrote: Yes.
Image
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Hanzze
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Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Post by Hanzze »

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Sun Oct 31, 2010 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: Can Buddhism exist without the doctrine of reincarnation?

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

Aloka wrote:.
Having read the thread so far, nothing has persuaded me to change from my neutral position of not speculating about past and future and of practising Dhamma in the here and now, according to the most excellent and (to me) very relevant teachings of Ajahn Sumedho.
Me too. Though I think that in some Buddhist schools belief in rebirth is more central to practice.

Spiny
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